In New Jersey - Underground Bunker Hid Part of Huge Arsenal

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This story is disconcerting as the clear implication is that there is some point at which the number of firearms a person collects, or the amount of ammunition he possesses can be considered in and of itself probable cause for action by law enforcement.

While I recognize this story is out of New Jersey, which is particularly anti gun, it could happen anywhere. I know there are some of us that have collections that are quite sizable and this has serious implications for us in particular, but since we do not know what the numbers are that would set law enforcement off, this concept can affect us all.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28919576/


NBCPhiladelphia.com
updated 11:17 p.m. ET, Fri., Jan. 30, 2009

Flames shot into the air as New Jersey State Police destroyed gunpowder found, they say, with a haul so huge they needed forklifts and a box truck to take it all away.

State police seized what they think is the largest cache of firearms and ammunition most of them have ever seen.

It was found in a house, two trailers and even an underground bunker on a piece of property in rural Franklin Twp., Gloucester County, State Police said.

Investigators say they discovered more than 250 guns, a hand grenade and close to 500,000 rounds of ammunition. “Gun shops don’t have half-a-million rounds,” said Detective Sgt. Mike Peterson with N.J. State Police.

State police say an investigation into two recent burglaries in Salem County led them to the property on Monday.That’s when police say they encountered the homeowner, 59-year-old Brian Hinkel, a former Vineland Police Officer.

“He tried to slam the door on our detectives and we were able to follow him into the house. He ran into the kitchen and grabbed a loaded handgun off the kitchen counter and our detectives were able to disarm him at that point and place him under arrest,” explained Sgt. Stephen Jones with the State Police.

Hinkel was charged with assaulting a police officer. Authorities say several guns were visible in the house. After getting a warrant, a full-fledged search began on Tuesday and continued into Thursday.

Neighbor Antoinette Ragone, who saw what police hauled away, was stunned. “I’m shocked and I’m upset because I live here, I have a 14-year-old son, 15-year-old nephew with me.

”State police say the evidence they found connected Hinkel to two men charged with the burglaries. One of those men has been arrested. The other, Peter Monteleone, Jr., is still on the loose according to investigators.

Why would a former police officer have an arsenal like that? “We do believe he had a firearms purchase permit and he was legally able to possess firearms, but whether or not the firearms themselves are legal is a different question,” said Sgt. Jones.

Hinkel was free on Thursday after posting 10-thousand dollars bail. Authorities say the process of sorting and identifying everything they found could take days.

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[rant] Who knows? Some cops are set of by the presence of just one firearm.

In NJ, the "authoritahs" make up their own rules as they go along. By the time you have fought it out in court, your firearms have probably already been destroyed, along with your bank account and your reputation.

Even here in Alexandria a few years back a gas station owner who warded off a robbery with his pistol had it confiscated, and the prosecutor asked the court to destroy the firearm. The judge ordered it, even though the gas station owner was not convicted of anything. Fortunately, the guy was able to fight it and get his gun back, but you can see how the process works, and that's in VA for chrissake.

Can anybody cite the code in NJ that says how many firearms is too many?

It sems that this guy was a suspect in a burglary ring, so the police had reason to poke around a little, maybe even to barge into his house, since we don't know the whole story. The real question is all the BS about the size of his collection, none of which has been declared illegal in this article. Just "too much", whatever that means.

Of course, try to walk through an airport with "too much" cash, and see if you get to keep it. Same idea, I guess. [/rant]

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Tomahawk brings out a good point that I forgot to mention. This guy may well have had other issues that brought him to police attention first. But after they got there the size of his gun collection became the issue. According to this story the police said that all of the firearms were of a type legal to own and this guy was legal to own or posses them.

But the the ammo and presumable the guns were found last week and have already been destroyed, at least in part. So now, no matter what the original issues might have been, this guys RTKBA has been taken without due process, and the only cause is apparently the size of his collection.

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Obviously we dont know the full story, but it sounds suspiciously like jack-booted thuggery on part of the police. The article clearly states that a warrent was obtained AFTER the police barged into his house after he made it clear they were not welcome in his home (I assume by attempting to shut the door on the cops)...

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Hawkflyer wrote:

But the the ammo and presumable the guns were found last week and have already been destroyed, at least in part. So now, no matter what the original issues might have been, this guys RTKBA has been taken without due process, and the only cause is apparently the size of his collection.

Click to expand...

One thing I have to ask is, doesn't NJ lack a equivalent RTKBA amendment in their state constitution? If so (the constitution of the US notwithstanding), doesn't that mean the state of NJ does not and is not required to respect any RTKBA?

NJ is a really f'd up place regardless of how it's laws are set up.

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Some states need to be annexed in their entirety.

TFred

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Since the report states that he was aledgedly connected with a burglar ring, I have to wonder if any of the firearms in his possession were stolen and how many?

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Walleye wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

But the the ammo and presumable the guns were found last week and have already been destroyed, at least in part. So now, no matter what the original issues might have been, this guys RTKBA has been taken without due process, and the only cause is apparently the size of his collection.

Click to expand...

One thing I have to ask is, doesn't NJ lack a equivalent RTKBA amendment in their state constitution? If so (the constitution of the US notwithstanding), doesn't that mean the state of NJ does not and is not required to respect any RTKBA?

NJ is a really f'd up place regardless of how it's laws are set up.

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Currently the 14th amendment does not force application of the 2nd amendment on the states, so you are correct the NJ is NOT obliged to recognize RTKBA unless they have some language in their state Constitution.

But that is still no excuse for the size of this guys collection becoming an issue. The report says that all the firearms were legal. While that language is not specific, I presume it also means that they were not stolen. But in any case it astounds me that they have already destroyed the materials, before a trial.

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Walleye wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

But the the ammo and presumable the guns were found last week and have already been destroyed, at least in part. So now, no matter what the original issues might have been, this guys RTKBA has been taken without due process, and the only cause is apparently the size of his collection.

Click to expand...

One thing I have to ask is, doesn't NJ lack a equivalent RTKBA amendment in their state constitution? If so (the constitution of the US notwithstanding), doesn't that mean the state of NJ does not and is not required to respect any RTKBA?

NJ is a really f'd up place regardless of how it's laws are set up.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter whether there is a constitutional clause or not. Unless there a law stating how much is too much, there is no reason to confiscate property that is not illegal to possess. If so, a cop could arrest you for wearing a red shirt because there is no constitutional right to wear a red shirt.

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Perhaps Mr.Hinkel is an environmentalist and was just cleaning up all the boating accidents you people have.

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But in any case it astounds me that they have already destroyed the materials, before a trial.

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That's what's got me. It's great to know that while only being charged with "assaulting an officer", the police have the ability to obtain a warrant, sieze your firearms, destroy them.....all before you get your day in court.

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Tomahawk wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

But the the ammo and presumable the guns were found last week and have already been destroyed, at least in part. So now, no matter what the original issues might have been, this guys RTKBA has been taken without due process, and the only cause is apparently the size of his collection.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter whether there is a constitutional clause or not. Unless there a law stating how much is too much, there is no reason to confiscate property that is not illegal to possess. If so, a cop could arrest you for wearing a red shirt because there is no constitutional right to wear a red shirt.

Click to expand...

It is SOP for many P.D,s to destroy all confiscated ammunition.

If you loose gus in a boating accident, make sure to loose lots of ammo as well.

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Here is the other thing. I would be surprised if anyone (yes you guys included) would have a firearm without also having at least ONE (yes I know one is not enough) box of ammo for it. So lets say this guy has 200 rounds (I know still not enough) for each of his 250 odd firearms. That is nominally 50,000 rounds of ammo that would nominally weigh 5,000 lbs.

It is very likely that the reporter is at least one order of magnitude off of the actual number of rounds involved. Even using the numbers above you would still want to have a forklift handy. But for many people having 200 rounds for each firearm they own is a drop in the bucket.

For my part the number of firearms mentioned in the article is not shocking. There is little mention of how he came by these weapons, but trust me when I say that it is possible to come by that many firearms legitimately. While the volume of ammo seems high as well, It is not really out of line for a large scale collector.

In my view, any department that has a policy of destroying private property prior to a trial is just wrong. In this case it would appear that this guys 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendment rights were violated by the actions of this department. Lets suppose for a second that he is exonerated. Does anyone here think he will be paid the fair market value of the items seized and destroyed?

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Hawkflyer wrote:

State police say an investigation into two recent burglaries in Salem County led them to the property on Monday.That’s when police say they encountered the homeowner, 59-year-old Brian Hinkel, a former Vineland Police Officer.

“He tried to slam the door on our detectives and we were able to follow him into the house. He ran into the kitchen and grabbed a loaded handgun off the kitchen counter and our detectives were able to disarm him at that point and place him under arrest,” explained Sgt. Stephen Jones with the State Police.

Hinkel was charged with assaulting a police officer. Authorities say several guns were visible in the house. After getting a warrant, a full-fledged search began on Tuesday and continued into Thursday.

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Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? Evidently in New Jersey, merely refusing to talk to the police is reason enough for them to forcefuly invade your home, arrest you and seize your private property -- all without first having a warrant.

Apart from the RTKB, it seems Jeresy's goons have never heard of "unreasonable search and seizure" either. :uhoh:

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Hawkflyer wrote:

SNIP In my view, any department that has a policy of destroying private property prior to a trial is just wrong.

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Just to expand on it.

Jefferson, Adams, et al would have had a different word for it--tyranny.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

SNIP In this case it would appear that this guys 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendment rights were violated by the actions of this department.

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Makes you wonder if they allow writs of assistance (general warrants) in New Jersey.

They wanta be careful:

James Otis considered himself a loyal British subject. Yet in February 1761, he argued so brilliantly against the writs of assistance in a nearly five-hour oration before a packed audience in the Old State House that John Adams later claimed: "The child independence was then and there born,[for] every man of an immense crowded audience appeared to me to go away as I did, ready to take arms against writs of assistance." (emphasis Citizen's)

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/James-Otis

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When is it enough? When is it too much? At what point does the government overstep its boundaries? When do the people put a stop to it? Everyone says to take it up at the voting booth but that isn't changing anything. The police/standing army is still ignoring our rights and the justice system is turning its blind eye to it.

So I ask you, when is it enough?
When do we say stop?
When do we realize that voting is useless as plans have long ago been put into motion that can not be stopped by "change" or any other campaign promises?

We were sold out generations ago and things will continue to get worse until the sheep give in and go along for the bigger change, disarming and total socialism. For decades they have nibbled away at our rights while spending our fortune away. We are losing everything down the slopes of economic ruin and bankruptcy.

So some guy in NJ has 250 legal weapons this week. Next week it will be dropped to 150 legal weapons. Maybe by next year it will be anyone with more than 15 is a danger. By then there won't be enough people to fight against them. If we don't stand up and fight for this man's rights we will lose all our rights too.

Sorry to report that I too have lost all my firearms and ammo in yet another senseless boating accident. I am forming a new group but I don't know if it should bo called GOAB (Gun Owners Against Boats) or The Gilligan Campaign.

Keep your powder dry (even in those boating accidents)

Ken

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This is apparantly a total disregard of the rights of personal property. Notwithstanding the fella's possible link to a robbery. Silly me, he was trying to defend the invasion of his home by the Gestapo and was subsequently arrested and THEN a warrant was issued? Hmmmm can anyone say " Sieg Heil" ? It's disturbing that he was a former LEO. He should most assuredly have steered clear of any hint of wrongdoing, but as was stated peviously, all the facts are as yet unknown.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Here is the other thing. I would be surprised if anyone (yes you guys included) would have a firearm without also having at least ONE (yes I know one is not enough) box of ammo for it. So lets say this guy has 200 rounds (I know still not enough) for each of his 250 odd firearms. That is nominally 50,000 rounds of ammo that would nominally weigh 5,000 lbs.

It is very likely that the reporter is at least one order of magnitude off of the actual number of rounds involved. Even using the numbers above you would still want to have a forklift handy. But for many people having 200 rounds for each firearm they own is a drop in the bucket.

For my part the number of firearms mentioned in the article is not shocking. There is little mention of how he came by these weapons, but trust me when I say that it is possible to come by that many firearms legitimately. While the volume of ammo seems high as well, It is not really out of line for a large scale collector.

In my view, any department that has a policy of destroying private property prior to a trial is just wrong. In this case it would appear that this guys 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendment rights were violated by the actions of this department. Lets suppose for a second that he is exonerated. Does anyone here think he will be paid the fair market value of the items seized and destroyed?

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Heck, I know a guy that has over 3000 firearms and supposedly has enough ammo that he notified the fire department that if they ever get a call out to his place, to wait until they hear the boom.

I've seen pictures of small parts of his collection (multiple open safes filled to the brim with firearms of all shapes, sizes, and calibers). Even if he only had 250 rounds per weapon, he has a god-awful amount of ammunition on-site.

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You can shoot only 1 gun effectively at a time. You can carry no more than 2 or 3, with about 500 rounds or so total with you depending on the caliber, and that's if you're really loaded down.

For that reason, any limit on the number of firearms a person can have is absurd, and shouldn't even stand up to the logic of an idiot. But that IS New Jersey.