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Definition of "unloaded" firearm

nova

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Please if anyone can give a link or citation/quote from VA law that defines what an "Unloaded" firearm is I would appreciate it.

Thanks.:)
 

pourshot

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Although, IANAL, I do not believe there is any code regarding what"loaded firearm"means, therefore, I *THINK* it would default to any live ammo in the gun no matter its position. So any round anywhere in a revolver, no matter how many pulls it takes to get a bang, or any ammo within a magazine inserted into a semi-auto no matter if one isin the chamber or not.

For muzzle loaders, I would have to assume only if primed.



Unlike - say Utah...

76-10-502[/b].[/b] When weapon deemed loaded.[/b]
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
 

ProShooter

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pourshot wrote:
Although, IANAL, I do not believe there is any code regarding what"loaded firearm"means, therefore, I *THINK* it would default to any live ammo in the gun no matter its position. So any round anywhere in a revolver, no matter how many pulls it takes to get a bang, or any ammo within a magazine inserted into a semi-auto no matter if one isin the chamber or not.

For muzzle loaders, I would have to assume only if primed.



Unlike - say Utah...

76-10-502[/b].[/b] When weapon deemed loaded.[/b]
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
+1
 

ed

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pourshot wrote:
I *THINK* it would default to any live ammo in the gun no matter its position. So any round anywhere in a revolver, no matter how many pulls it takes to get a bang, or any ammo within a magazine inserted into a semi-auto no matter if one isin the chamber or not.
+1
 

Virginiaplanter

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Utah ain't got nothing on Virginia.


H. Meaning of "possession" of bow or firearm and definition of "loaded gun." For the purpose of this section, the word "possession" shall include, but not be limited to, having any bow or firearm in or on one's person, vehicle or conveyance. For the purpose of this section, a "loaded gun" shall be defined as a firearm in which ammunition is chambered or loaded in the magazine or clip when such magazine or clip is found engaged or partially engaged in a firearm. The definition of a loaded muzzleloading gun will include a gun which is capped or has a charged pan.

4VAC15-40-60
 

nova

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Thanks everyone. That's the "guidelines" I had been following already. Good to know. :)
 

nova

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Funny. That law covers muzzleloaders and semi-autos...no definition for revolvers. Probably because it's obvious whether one is loaded or not, but still it is odd that they left it out.
 

AbNo

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*blink* English, please?

What ever happened to "Let the laws be clear, uniform and precise; to interpret laws is almost always to corrupt them."? I think Voltaire had it right....
 

TFred

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Bill in VA wrote:
nova wrote:
Funny. That law covers muzzleloaders and semi-autos...no definition for revolvers. Probably because it's obvious whether one is loaded or not, but still it is odd that they left it out.

It's in there and it's crystal clear. Re-read the highlighted part...

H. Meaning of "possession" of bow or firearm and definition of "loaded gun." For the purpose of this section, the word "possession" shall include, but not be limited to, having any bow or firearm in or on one's person, vehicle or conveyance. For the purpose of this section, a "loaded gun" shall be defined as a firearm in which ammunition is chambered or loaded in the magazine or clip when such magazine or clip is found engaged or partially engaged in a firearm. The definition of a loaded muzzleloading gun will include a gun which is capped or has a charged pan.

4VAC15-40-60

The short version is thatit's a loaded firearm if: A)the magazine is loadedand attached, fully or partially; or B) if a round is chambered; or C) capped nipple/primed pan for a muzzle-loader. Just because it's in the Administrative Code doesn't mean it's not applicable to criminal law either. It's still a legally codifieddefinition and while there's no penalty for a loaded gun, per se, the courts will look to, and use, the definition found in the Administrative Code.

HTH ;)
But as nova wrote, I still don't think this definition includes revolvers. I am certainly not a firearms vocabulary expert, but until shown differently, I don't think a revolver has a "chamber". It has a cylinder, which is an entirely different idea. A chamber is one place where all cartridges in a pistol's magazine must eventually go before they can be fired. There is simply no corresponding place in a revolver. I suppose one could view a cylinder as a magazine, however.

It would make logical sense to change the rule to read: "a 'loaded gun' shall be defined as a firearm in which ammunition is chambered or loaded in the magazine, clip or cylinder, when such magazine, clip or cylinder is found engaged or partially engaged in a firearm." But that is not what it says.

One thing is clear: the author of this rule was not a revolver person.

JMHO, certainly willing to be convinced otherwise.

TFred
 

TexasNative

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I've always considered a revolver's cylinder as an arrangement of multiple chambers. In fact, I've got this idea in the back of my head that the cylinder is actually the "chamber cylinder."
 

2a4all

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TFred wrote:
Bill in VA wrote:
nova wrote:
Funny. That law covers muzzleloaders and semi-autos...no definition for revolvers. Probably because it's obvious whether one is loaded or not, but still it is odd that they left it out.

It's in there and it's crystal clear. Re-read the highlighted part...

H. Meaning of "possession" of bow or firearm and definition of "loaded gun." For the purpose of this section, the word "possession" shall include, but not be limited to, having any bow or firearm in or on one's person, vehicle or conveyance. For the purpose of this section, a "loaded gun" shall be defined as a firearm in which ammunition is chambered or loaded in the magazine or clip when such magazine or clip is found engaged or partially engaged in a firearm. The definition of a loaded muzzleloading gun will include a gun which is capped or has a charged pan.

4VAC15-40-60

The short version is thatit's a loaded firearm if: A)the magazine is loadedand attached, fully or partially; or B) if a round is chambered; or C) capped nipple/primed pan for a muzzle-loader. Just because it's in the Administrative Code doesn't mean it's not applicable to criminal law either. It's still a legally codifieddefinition and while there's no penalty for a loaded gun, per se, the courts will look to, and use, the definition found in the Administrative Code.

HTH ;)
But as nova wrote, I still don't think this definition includes revolvers. I am certainly not a firearms vocabulary expert, but until shown differently, I don't think a revolver has a "chamber". It has a cylinder, which is an entirely different idea. A chamber is one place where all cartridges in a pistol's magazine must eventually go before they can be fired. There is simply no corresponding place in a revolver. I suppose one could view a cylinder as a magazine, however.

It would make logical sense to change the rule to read: "a 'loaded gun' shall be defined as a firearm in which ammunition is chambered or loaded in the magazine, clip or cylinder, when such magazine, clip or cylinder is found engaged or partially engaged in a firearm." But that is not what it says.

One thing is clear: the author of this rule was not a revolver person.

JMHO, certainly willing to be convinced otherwise.

TFred
True, the chamber is where a round (usually) must be when it is fired, but all rounds don't necessarily have to use the same chamber. The cylinder of a revolver actually contains 5, 6 or more chambers.
 

nova

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Yeah that one went right over my head. A revolver has multiple chambers arranged in the cylinder. Still it is obviously not specifically talking about revolvers though, but then again since when are laws written clearly and to the point?

Slightly off topic but it also irks me when laws include "and for other purposes"...
 

2a4all

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nova wrote:
Yeah that one went right over my head. A revolver has multiple chambers arranged in the cylinder. Still it is obviously not specifically talking about revolvers though, but then again since when are laws written clearly and to the point?

Slightly off topic but it also irks me when laws include "and for other purposes"...
Should the definition of "loaded" allow for empty chambers? Can a firearm be "partially loaded"?
 

Hawkflyer

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TexasNative wrote:
I've always considered a revolver's cylinder as an arrangement of multiple chambers.

This is most correct. In fact some of the old revolver shooters of the 1940's, 50's and 60's like Elmer Keith and Ed Mcgivern spoke of revolvers as actually being six separate firearms in one because of the differences between each of the chambers in a cylinder.

In Mcgiverns case he was actually careful to learn how each separate chamber shot and he could demonstrate the differences between each chamber in a particular revolver.

So for this code section, most people will recognize that revolvers are covered by the use of the term "Chamber". A chamber is nothing more than the place where a round sits prior to being fired.
 

user

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My property law professor at GMUSL, the late Ralph Norvell, used to yell, "Streets and Alleys! Streets and Alleys!" whenever someone asked a question like this. His point, as he told me privately, was that there is no legal definition for what a "street" is, or what an "alley" is. The law can't cover everything, it's too big as it is. So most of what you need to know to survive in modern Western culture is the stuff that most people already know and take for granted. It's that body of knowledge that the jury will rely on when they decide whether your gun was "loaded" or "unloaded".
 

Chuckles

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If there is no legal definition, it is open to anyone's interpretations. Heck, a year ago they were trying to figure out if "Militia" and "The People" are to be interpreted as one and the same.

Then again, if something should happen and the judge/jury interprets the law differently, you would be in a heap of trouble.
 
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