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Thread: I wondered when today would come

  1. #1
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    Well I am fairly new to the open carry idea, I have been on the board for a couple months and I have open carried for about 3-4 months or so. Well today while at Best Buy in Citrus Heights I finally had my first confrontaion with LEO while open carrying.

    I was there exchanging a waffle maker I got for a wedding gift (we already had one) Anyways while walking around looking for a voice recorder, I guess the security or someone else had called the police department. I ended up getting a gift card and as I was walking out there was an officer right infront of the door. He was very nice about the whole thing, he said" you know why I am here. right?" I just said "yes sir"

    Now I know most people on this forum are not supportive of LEO searching them or looking at their guns to make sure they were unloaded, but I honstly don't care. If it makes them feel better, they can check it out they want. I told him he could check it, while moving my body so my right hip with the holster was facing him. I would not pull the gun out myself. He said he didn't want to see it, but he wanted to see my ID, I said no problem and gave it to him. While getting my ID out he say my CA Gaurd card and Exposed firearms permit (THESE ARE ONLY VALID WHILE WORKING AND IN A BSIS APPROVEDUNIFORM) Don't go out and take the class and think that you are untouchable. Anyways, while he was running my info, another officer showed up, this guy was more of a " I am Mr. Hardass Cop" with a stern look and took the more tactical approach when walking up to me.

    The secondofficer started asking questions like why do I carry a gun and do I know that I make my self a target. I told him I have my reasons for OC and we could debate them, but it really wouldn't do anything but hurt me at the time. So then he asked if I planned on being a LEO and if I do that this type of thing can hurt my chances because LE agencys look bad on these things.

    All the while the first officer was still polite and kept saying that I had my guard card, I kept saying that my card had nothing to do with it, I asked them if they would like to see my OC pamplet in my backpocket, but twice they said no. Then they asked why I don't cover it up. I said well I can't since I don't have a CCW and will not be able to get one in the Sacramento county and I explaind why. After my info came back clear they told me I could go on my way, but I really shouldn't OC because there is always the possibility that things can go wrong. I walked out the door of Best Buy and went on about my day.

    Now there is some dialogue, that I didn't type down, but non of it is anything to hide, its just I dont have the time to type everyword said. If you have a questin about anything I posted I will answer asap.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like an overall positive experience. Well done.
    There will be someone along soon to tell you that you don't have to show your I.D. if they don't have "cause" to investigate anything.
    I believe that the more we are completely cooperative the sooner the police will decide that it's a non-issue. Maybe they'll start asking callers who report a "man with a gun" if the MWG is doing something illegal.

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    flintlock tom wrote:
    Sounds like an overall positive experience. Well done.
    There will be someone along soon to tell you that you don't have to show your I.D. if they don't have "cause" to investigate anything.
    I believe that the more we are completely cooperative the sooner the police will decide that it's a non-issue. Maybe they'll start asking callers who report a "man with a gun" if the MWG is doing something illegal.
    Honestly, in my opinion it was a positive experience. And like you said there will probably be someone telling me not to give my ID or anything like that, but I agree with you. If your innocent and wiling to participate in OC, you might as well just go with the show, but know a good limit where to stop and not keep your mouth flapping. If anyone has seen Be Cool (sequal to Get Shorty) like Travolta says as Chili Palmer " say nothing more then you have to, if that"

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Sound like a productive encounter. Maybe Officer Gung-Ho learned a little by the exposure.

    If I am ever stopped while open carrying, if the LEO demands ID, I will hand over my Government Issued Identification Card, my VA Card.

    It has my photo and my name. No other information on it at all. And it is the only ID I carry when I am open carrying outside of my vehicle.

    It simply lets them know that I am not lying about who I am.

    And I know for a fact that there is more than one person with my name in the VA files.

    I have had a couple people question the validity of the ID, as it has no issue date, no expiration date, and no other personal info. However, I know it is good as it is the only ID I use to get through security at the airport.

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    D53 wrote:
    After my info came back clear they told me I could go on my way, but I really shouldn't OC because there is always the possibility that things can go wrong.
    You know, I don't think you should go outside anymore. In fact, you should board up all your windows and bolt the door and coccon yourself in the safety of your home, because if you go outside there is always the possibility that things can go wrong.

    Of course, I'm kidding.

    I also will say that carrying a firearm does not increase your likelihood of attracting criminal behavior, the occurance of a negligent discharge, or other incident. On the contrary- the firearm is the deterent. Carrying it exposed makes you hyperaware of safety concerns. If what the officer was saying were true, then the police are making themselves a liability by being openly armed.

    Plus 1 for shopping for a Digital Voice Recorder... Minus 1 for not having one before carrying exposed. If the officers did demand your "Exposed Firearms Permit", I would anticipate some possiblyof negative outcome initiated by Consumer Affairs. Asside from these issues, it was a pretty clean encounter- perhaps credited to the Sac memo.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    I also will say that carrying a firearm does not increase your likelihood of attracting criminal behavior, the occurance of a negligent discharge, or other incident. On the contrary- the firearm is the deterent. Carrying it exposed makes you hyperaware of safety concerns. If what the officer was saying were true, then the police are making themselves a liability by being openly armed.
    Funny enought, when I was explaining what happened to my wife when she got home from work, she said the same thing about police.
    Plus 1 for shopping for a Digital Voice Recorder... Minus 1 for not having one before carrying exposed.
    Crappy enough, I had one when I first started OCing, but I had misplaced it. So for a while I OCed with just the information in my pocket and the recorder I wanted was a little more than how much my store credit was. Either way yes I sould have one, but until I have extra cash to toss in on top of that store credit, I will have to just wait.

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    It's interesting that you don't mind be harassed by LE. Perhaps you don't feel it is harassment, but that's what I call it when you are involuntarily detained and talked down to... By all means, if that doesn't bother you, let them do it. Volunteer your ID, your firearm for inspection, throw in an open invitation to search your car and your home, and then volunteer to go 'downtown' with them for questioning... if you want. After all, you have nothing to hide, right?!

    I'll be the one to say it: don't do anything you don't have to, unless you want to start walking down the slippery slope I outlined above. When we allow abuse of power because it's only a 'minor inconvenience' we're setting the bar that much higher. In 10 years, the 'minor inconvenience' is taken for granted. Then it gets just a little bit worse.

    I am naturally inclined, as most of us are, to take the easiest route. However, I make a conscious effort to lower that bar. I want to leave this world a little better off, not a little worse.

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    It's interesting that you don't mind be harassed by LE. Perhaps you don't feel it is harassment, but that's what I call it when you are involuntarily detained and talked down to... By all means, if that doesn't bother you, let them do it. Volunteer your ID, your firearm for inspection, throw in an open invitation to search your car and your home, and then volunteer to go 'downtown' with them for questioning... if you want. After all, you have nothing to hide, right?!

    I'll be the one to say it: don't do anything you don't have to, unless you want to start walking down the slippery slope I outlined above. When we allow abuse of power because it's only a 'minor inconvenience' we're setting the bar that much higher. In 10 years, the 'minor inconvenience' is taken for granted. Then it gets just a little bit worse.

    I am naturally inclined, as most of us are, to take the easiest route. However, I make a conscious effort to lower that bar. I want to leave this world a little better off, not a little worse.

    My $0.02.



    Honestly you are right, I have read your posts and I do agree with you. But for my personal preference, I will be willing to comply with LEO when I am by myself and some what unprepared. Now what I mean by unprepared is:

    I am acknowledgeable about the pc codes for open carry, but I don't know them 100% by heart, I don't have a lawyer, I don't have a voice recorder (right now, but will soon) and honestly if I were to be in Theseus's position there is no way in hell I could afford to defend myself. As for having someone with me, I would like to have a witness that I could call on if ever need be but I usually go and run errands by myself.

    Now you might say well if I am not 100% prepared then why I am I OCing. Well partially because I know its my right and I have nothing to hide or anything to worry about with my back round. I enjoy the personal feeling of being able to defend myself if I ever had to. And the other half is because I want to get the word out on OCing as much as I can. I have passed out so many pamphlets and fliers in the last week and a half that I literally ran out of ink in my printer. But I have met a lot of people with a positive result once they have learned about OC. I know I take a risk every time I OC, but I do it non the less.

    CA_Libertarian, I hope this helps explain my outlook. Trust me once I am a little comfortable with my knowledge on the penal codes, I have another recorder, and a lawyer's lined up and a little more financially set up, I will have more of a resistance (within reason) to what I will or will not do when being stopped by LEO.

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    Forgive me for asking the obvious question, as I am sure all of you have been asked 1000 times... How do you get away with OC'ing in CA? I grew up In Orangevale, and NEVER saw anyone carrying, (Except Cops of course). What are the laws and conditions California imposes for exercising your 2A rights?

    I have lived in Arizona all my adult life, and I OC fully loaded everywhere I go, as it's legal and commonplace here. I do visit family often in California though, and would OC if I can get away with it, as I OC in other neighboring states. Also, I know you have to lock your gun up in a locked case, put it in the trunk, Ammo seperated, etc to travel with it. How do you then transition from traveling in your car, to OC'ing your weapon? Can anyone cite the actual California Law(s) that apply?

    Thanks :celebrate


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    Check out this site, it has all the info http://www.californiaopencarry.org/ I have never seen anyone open carry, I read up on it and started doing it myself. And here in CA it is UOC ( you weapon has to be unloaded) but you can have loaded magazines in a seperate hip holster. its all on the site I linked.

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    D53 wrote:
    Check out this site, it has all the info http://www.californiaopencarry.org/ I have never seen anyone open carry, I read up on it and started doing it myself. And here in CA it is UOC ( you weapon has to be unloaded) but you can have loaded magazines in a seperate hip holster. its all on the site I linked.
    Thank you for enlightening me with that link! This might be another stupid question, but I didn't see too many off-limits places to carry in California, (Other than the obvious Governmental Institutions). Here in Arizona, you can't carry in any establishment that sells Alcohol to be consumed on the premisis (i.e. Bars, Applebees), businesses that post "No Firearms" on their front enterances, or businesses that ask you to leave, (You'll be charged with Trespassing if you fail to comply). Does California have another law (other than the ones I read on the OC Pamphlet) that add places such as the places Arizona adds to off-limit OCAlso, I understand that you have to registar your handguns in California. In Arizona, we do not, nor is there any licensing or permitting requirements. We can also have Mags in excess of 10 Rounds. Since I am an AZ Resident, with an AZ Driver's License, can I get away with a 12 Round Mag, and having in my posession an "Unregistared" Handgun in Ca?

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    Recovering Californian wrote:
    D53 wrote:
    Check out this site, it has all the info http://www.californiaopencarry.org/ I have never seen anyone open carry, I read up on it and started doing it myself. And here in CA it is UOC ( you weapon has to be unloaded) but you can have loaded magazines in a seperate hip holster. its all on the site I linked.
    Thank you for enlightening me with that link! This might be another stupid question, but I didn't see too many off-limits places to carry in California, (Other than the obvious Governmental Institutions). Here in Arizona, you can't carry in any establishment that sells Alcohol to be consumed on the premisis (i.e. Bars, Applebees), businesses that post "No Firearms" on their front enterances, or businesses that ask you to leave, (You'll be charged with Trespassing if you fail to comply). Does California have another law (other than the ones I read on the OC Pamphlet) that add places such as the places Arizona adds to off-limit OCAlso, I understand that you have to registar your handguns in California. In Arizona, we do not, nor is there any licensing or permitting requirements. We can also have Mags in excess of 10 Rounds. Since I am an AZ Resident, with an AZ Driver's License, can I get away with a 12 Round Mag, and having in my posession an "Unregistared" Handgun in Ca?
    Hi, Recovering,
    Welcome to the forum.
    The only codified "off-limits" areas are government buildings (court houses, post office) and schools (grades K-12, 1000 feet away). No restrictions on places that serve alcohol.
    There is no official gun registration in CA. The DoJ has a record of guns at the time of purchase and you can voluntarily register, but no legal requirement, with a couple specific exceptions (C&R guns purchased to bring into the state).
    You may not bring magazines into the state which can hold more than 10 rounds. Leave them at home.
    Read up on other peoples experience and have at it.



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    Recovering Californian wrote:
    Forgive me for asking the obvious question, as I am sure all of you have been asked 1000 times... How do you get away with OC'ing in CA? I grew up In Orangevale, and NEVER saw anyone carrying, (Except Cops of course). What are the laws and conditions California imposes for exercising your 2A rights?

    I have lived in Arizona all my adult life, and I OC fully loaded everywhere I go, as it's legal and commonplace here. I do visit family often in California though, and would OC if I can get away with it, as I OC in other neighboring states. Also, I know you have to lock your gun up in a locked case, put it in the trunk, Ammo seperated, etc to travel with it. How do you then transition from traveling in your car, to OC'ing your weapon? Can anyone cite the actual California Law(s) that apply?

    Thanks :celebrate
    This is a common misconception. While it is the safest thing to do (in regards to LEO interaction) you do not have to have your gun locked up. You can legally have it sitting unloaded on the front seat, or anywhere else that it is clearly visible, and you can have the ammunition laying right beside it. You would then have to be aware of the "School Zone" prohibition and stay 1,000 feet from school property. (PC 626.9)

    I have a Center-of-Mass gun safe in the front of the car. I carry unloaded in a paddle holster on my right side, with two full magazines on my left side. If I find myself approaching a school zone, I remove the unloaded firearm and lock it into the safe right next to me on the seat. Takes all of about 4 seconds.

    As there are no laws specifically making it illegal to Open Carry in a vehicle, then no, I can't cite the specific law.

    Look over the website listed above, it has all the information you could possibly want. Once you have read that, read the actual Penal Code referenced in the handouts, ask more questions, then re-read, the ask more questions.

    The more questions people ask the more we all learn.



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    Overall, this sounds like a fairly good LEO encounter, relative to many of the other accounts.

    D53 wrote:
    Now I know most people on this forum are not supportive of LEO searching them or looking at their guns to make sure they were unloaded


    Actually, 12031(e) requires that you allow them to inspect your firearm to ensure that it is unloaded. If you don't they can legally arrest you.

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    Thanks for the info Decoligny. In Hindsight, I should have realized that all the people I've listened to regarding California Firearms Laws are just as full of it as the so-called "Experts" here in Arizona that seem to believe that you have to carry unloaded, Concealed, or whatever else they seem to believe.

    Is there a website I can visit that will give locations for all the schools in a given area, so I don't inadvertantly violate the School Zone Law?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Recovering Californian wrote:
    Thanks for the info Decoligny. In Hindsight, I should have realized that all the people I've listened to regarding California Firearms Laws are just as full of it as the so-called "Experts" here in Arizona that seem to believe that you have to carry unloaded, Concealed, or whatever else they seem to believe.

    Is there a website I can visit that will give locations for all the schools in a given area, so I don't inadvertantly violate the School Zone Law?
    626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
    (b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
    designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

    Now why would you want to put yourself in a position where it could be proved that you actually knew that there was a school two blocks over from the road you are driving down? If it's your own neighborhood you should already know, or if you see "School Zone" or "School Crossing" signs, then quickly put your handgun into the locking case that should be right next to you on the front seat, and then lock it. Otherwise, you didn't know there was a school there, and there is no way you reasonably should know there was a school there if you haven't been there before.

    If however, you are going to a specific location, and want to know for sure, just go to Google Maps. Type in the location you will be visiting. After the map comes up, type in "School" in the search block. Zoom in to the 1000 ft scale and see how close you are to any school. Be sure to see if the school is a real K-12 school, or if it Billy Joe's Karate School, or Buster's Driving School. You only have to be aware of the K-12s.



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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    There's also a filter in Google Earth that tags schools, although it makes for rather depressing viewing since there are schools everywhere.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Recovering Californian wrote:
    Is there a website I can visit that will give locations for all the schools in a given area, so I don't inadvertantly violate the School Zone Law?
    I postedmy trick in my own thread but figured it would bear re-posting part of it here since you ask.

    GPS Note: At the advise of Cato, I started carrying my firearm around with me in the car in its hard case lock box and I figured out a neat little way of telling if I was in a "school zone" wherever I stopped. When I stop, I take my GPS and tell it to list every "Community" building near me. It normally gives about the first 50 listings within the first 10 miles or so. Doing this will list every school of any kind and give me the distance as the crow flys. My Hotel is .6 miles (1800 yards) from the nearest school of any kind, so I know the businesses in my immediate area are good to go. Just about everyone I know has a GPS built into their cell phones now a days, so this may work out for you if you have such a search feature. (make sure your GPS database are up to date, but they are not building many new schools in urban areas these days

    Hope this helps...

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    Your right bigtoe, after looking at Google Earth, it seems like a school is everywhere. If I carry a case that locks with me, I know that I'm required to lock the unloaded gun in it within 1000ft of a school, but what legally is required of me with the ammo & clip?

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Recovering Californian wrote:
    Your right bigtoe, after looking at Google Earth, it seems like a school is everywhere. If I carry a case that locks with me, I know that I'm required to lock the unloaded gun in it within 1000ft of a school, but what legally is required of me with the ammo & clip?
    I am not aware of any regulation on the carry of ammo, clips or magazines when there is no firearm readily available. I carry my fully loaded,2 mag, Velcro flap holder on my left side regardless of if I am wearing my firearm at the time.

    The "school zone" restriction of PC 626.9 only states "firearm" specifically. Some anti-gunners and perhaps LEOs would argue that a magazineis "part" of a firearm, and therefor a firearm. I have not seen any evidence on the boardto suggest they would possibly push such an issue as long as the firearm itself is unloaded and locked up in a place that isNOTthe glove compartment or center console of the vehicle.

    Anyone feel free to jump in if I miss something.




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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    626.9 just applies to firearms. But there is a regulation that says you can't carry ammunition onto school grounds. So...stay off school property and you should be fine.

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    well I was able to get a recorder with my gift card, one step back in:



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    D53 wrote:
    Well I am fairly new to the open carry idea, I have been on the board for a couple months and I have open carried for about 3-4 months or so. Well today while at Best Buy in Citrus Heights I finally had my first confrontaion with LEO while open carrying.


    I live in Citrus Heights also. If the LEO truly felt thatothers seeing your weapon,could causethem to get aggressive, he would help you lobby for CCW "shall issue". I doubt this is the issue. I haven't yetUOCed. I plan on soon. Im wondering about the holster. Can I use a thigh mount withmad pouches on the holster? or does the magazines need to be not attached to the holster. any Ideas?

    Here is what it looks like.




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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    bombmaster wrote:
    I live in Citrus Heights also. If the LEO truly felt thatothers seeing your weapon,could causethem to get aggressive, he would help you lobby for CCW "shall issue". I doubt this is the issue. I haven't yetUOCed. I plan on soon. Im wondering about the holster. Can I use a thigh mount withmad pouches on the holster? or does the magazines need to be not attached to the holster. any Ideas?

    Here is what it looks like.
    Is that an FN FiveSeven?

    As for the holster, as far as everything I have read, its perfectly legal for the mag pouches to be part of the holster as you show it, but all LEOs in California may not agree or know it. The question I always ask is, how far do you want to push it?

    When carrying in Ca. I wore my mags in a separate mag pouch on the opposite side of my belt. I think this makes the first load and reloads faster anyway.

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    FMCDH wrote:
    Is that an FN FiveSeven?
    I dont know its not my picture. Was taken from www.highspeedgear.com



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