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Virginia Senate passes restaurant carry, rejects private gun sales ban

Notso

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I didn't see a penalty for failure to notify, only for consumption while carrying. If that's true, why bother notifying?
 

TFred

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Notso wrote:
I didn't see a penalty for failure to notify, only for consumption while carrying. If that's true, why bother notifying?
It looks as though the Engrossed version has been amended. See:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?091+ful+SB1035E

The strike-through text does not format properly here, so I simply removed it, but they did add the sections in brackets.

From paragraph J3:

A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club shall inform [an authorized alcohol beverage control manager] of the restaurant or club that he is carrying a concealed handgun [ , and a person who fails to do so is guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor] .
TFred

ETA: Location of text.
 

Jim Thorpe

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That is retarded if you have to notify them when you walk into the restaurant.
 

Grapeshot

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Jim Thorpe wrote:
That is retarded if you have to notify them when you walk into the restaurant.
No one ever said that all of our lawmakers were guilty of extreme logical thought processes.

What this requirement does is to limit those CCers who might chose to exercise their rights and further limits the number of managers willing to put up with the inconvenience. Can you imagine a CC dinner with 30 people lined up to see the manager?
Maybe we need a "Sign In - Sign Out" sheet. :banghead: If I were to CC (I won't) under these circumstances, I will carry a form for the manager to sign indicating that he/she has been duly informed et al.

Yata hey
 

Hawkflyer

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Well I can certainly see a situation where you arrive at a restaurant, and you tell the right person that you have a hogleg under your coat. You proceed to your table and have a nice meal, and as you are rising to leave, you firearm prints and the LEO at the next table decides to "detain" you for a brief discussion. Only then when he calls the ABC manager on duty over do you discover that the person you spoke to was on the LAST shift and the guy on duty has no idea you are carrying.

So having something for the ABC manager to sign would be useful, but I don't for a second think anyone at a restaurant will actually sign something for a person carrying a firearm. Maybe after the word gets around and the restaurants have time to establish a policy.

The fact is the notification requirement needs to go away. It is just bad law.
 

xd.40

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Well, wouldn't you be in violation of the law just for walking in the restaurant? You haven't had a chance to notify anybody or you are waiting for them to find an ABC manager and the police are called. What happens then...?
 

xd.40

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Very well stated. I have worked in the restaurant business as host staff, and know that they will not have time to deal with this. As I was at a large chain, we had 8 ABC managers, so there would be confusion and I doubt they would communicate. Let's tie them up with notifications. :)
 

Dutch Uncle

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Agree strongly with the above: If we are civil, pleasant, mature, and if we TIP WELL, we certainly will help our cause. With money tight, restaurants will not want to turn away good customers, especially our large OCDO groups. That only makes for lost revenue and bad publicity. There will always be a few "anti" zealots who will refuse us service, but we can just politely leave and reassure them we will not return. We should always make a point of thanking managers, hosts and wait staff for any courtesy, and let them know we will give them more business.

Bubba Ron can tell you that up in New Jersey they say "Money talks and bulls**t walks!"
 

Hawkflyer

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Pointman wrote:
Why is it that many pro rights people on OpenCarry are against obtaining the ability to use their rights, especially when someone else is doing the work for them?

SNIP...

Excuse me, but did you really just ask why people on this forum don't like to ask permission to exercise their rights? Please tell me you didn't just say that, because it looks like that is exactly what you said.

This is not about being nice to restaurant managers. Most people who carry have no problem in that area. It is also not about slipping someone a few bucks tip. If it is then we are no better than Mexico, where the monied class can do as they please and to hell with the peasants. This is about going through a process dictated by the state to obtain a "Permit to conceal" a firearm that you can already lawfully carry, and then having to TELL people you are carrying it, which not incidentally defeats the purpose of concealing it in the first instance.

As people on this and other forums keep saying, "Concealed is concealed". Contrary to the views expressed here, this requirement is not going to go away in 6 months. First off the legislature will not meet again until next year, so next July would be the first opportunity for this to go away. Second, the legislature is NOT going to remove a provision that they think supports private property concerns. So in the sprit of this forum, you might just be better off OCing in the first place.

The legislature does not want people secreting weapons onto private property where the owner might not want them. Now while we would all observe any owners wishes in this regard, the legislature does not believe that we would. Moreover the legislature does not think any of us are adult enough not to drink while carrying.

Unfortunately in this area they may have a point as I have personally seen people drink while carrying. Not smart but people do it. In any case they want to be able to blame the bar tender if you get drunk and shoot someone. How long will it be before these establishments figure this out and start refusing to serve people who carry to avoid the liability.
 

wylde007

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I'm still curious how this fixes the problem of being denied carry in a restaurant that still chooses to maintain a "crime spree" zone at the expense of their patrons.

If I OC into a gun-unfriendly restaurant and they tell me guns aren't allowed, why would that stop them from telling me that guns aren't allowed if I enter an establishment and politely "inform" them that I'm carrying concealed?

It still doesn't "force" anyone who doesn't want guns on their property to allow you permission to defend yourself.

The part about drinking bothers me, too. If I OC, I can imbibe, but if I CC I can't? What's the damn difference? It's no different than operating an automobile which statistics have shown is much more-likely to be the cause of a fatality than someone tossing a few back while carrying.

The whole government is suspect of their logic and wherewithal.:banghead:

Yes, baby steps may be necessary, but why are we forced to take steps to RECLAIM rights that were guaranteed by our founding fathers? It's ludicrous.

Not to be confused with Super Sugar Crisp.:celebrate
 

RogerS

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Would this bill of been better if it was tied up in some legislation that would buffer it and get it passed and signed by the governor? By buffering, another bill that would be on education, and just add the text to this bill as a final paragraph.

They do it in Washington all the time. Ouch !
 

Grapeshot

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My concern is that the restaurant managers/owners will not petition to have the notification clause removed but will take the immediate, time saving step of postings NO GUNS signs or simply instruct the greeter/hostess/host to inform you of the fact as a reply. That eliminates one task from their busy schedule.

The local restaurant association is not exactly pro self- defense.

OC requires no announcement nor response. Unless they are truly antis - then the burden of informing is on them.

Yata hey
 

TFred

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wylde007 wrote:
If I OC into a gun-unfriendly restaurant and they tell me guns aren't allowed, why would that stop them from telling me that guns aren't allowed if I enter an establishment and politely "inform" them that I'm carrying concealed?

It still doesn't "force" anyone who doesn't want guns on their property to allow you permission to defend yourself.
I don't believe there was ever any intent to force an unwilling property owner to allow you to carry in any form on their property, and such an effort would not stand a chance to become law.

The rights of property owners to set carry rules for their own property is paramount to a free society. I don't think anyone should want the law to override a property owner's wishes, no matter how misguided or unwise they may be.

TFred
 

Repeater

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xd.40 wrote:
Well, wouldn't you be in violation of the law just for walking in the restaurant? You haven't had a chance to notify anybody or you are waiting for them to find an ABC manager and the police are called. What happens then...?
Excellent question. Unless you inform the ABC manager of the fact you are carrying concealed, you are in violation, a class 3 misdemeanor, just for being on the premises, which includes the restaurant's parking lot.

That would seem to expose any gun owner who's carrying concealed to some risk of arrest.
 

TFred

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Grapeshot wrote:
My concern is that the restaurant managers/owners will not petition to have the notification clause removed but will take the immediate, time saving step of postings NO GUNS signs or simply instruct the greeter/hostess/host to inform you of the fact as a reply. That eliminates one task from their busy schedule.

The local restaurant association is not exactly pro self- defense.

OC requires no announcement nor response. Unless they are truly antis - then the burden of informing is on them.

Yata hey
Could easily happen... if/when the bill goes into effect, it would be beneficial for all CHP holders to make a point to go out to eat often during that first month, so they would get a clear understanding of how much business they would be losing by posting such signs.

TFred
 

wylde007

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TFred wrote:
I don't believe there was ever any intent to force an unwilling property owner to allow you to carry in any form on their property, and such an effort would not stand a chance to become law.
To that end I would consider this law completely useless.

If I conceal carry and notify, can I switch to open carry if I decide to have a frosty-cold malt beverage?

After an hour has passed and, physiologically, the alcohol has passed from my system can I re-conceal? Am I obliged to inform the ABC manager again?

This law serves no useful purpose. Is there a penalty for OCing and imbibing like CCing under §18.2-308? If I can have a drink or two and OC and I have to stay "dry" in order to CC... well, duh! It's no contest.
 

Tess

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I suspect a part of the reason this bill keeps passing with the notification requirement is because of people like Dick Saslaw. He thought we'd be turned away in Northern Virginia if we walked in to a restaurant while carrying openly. That didn't work in his favor -- often because people didn't even notice.

But if we have to inform, that gives them the ready-made opportunity to deny service.

Not smart from a business perspective, but smart if you have a NorthernVirginia left-wing mindset.
 

nickerj1

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How do you prosecute and/or enforce this? Presumably, if you're CC'ing, you won't be identified as carrying a gun and the cops will never be involved with you.

The only time I can see the police responding is if there is an actual shooting incident.

And if that occurs, after you're done shooting the bad-guy, walk over to the ABC manager and inform him you're carrying a concealed firearm, preferably before the police arrive.

How does a prosecutor prove that something didn't happen?

Also, similar to court summons and service papers, I'm sure there's some way to legally perform the "informing" without actually personally contacting the person. Maybe mailing the restaurant's place of business, addressing it to the ABC manager, and duly notifying them that you (insert your name here) frequent the restaurant and may be carrying a concealed firearm during any one of your future visits. Taping a "notice" on the restaurant's door identifying that you may be CC'ing in any one of your future visits. Posting a legal notice in a certified newspaper that circulates the area (similar requirements to serving papers in VA).
 
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