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Thread: What question would you ask a legal authority on MI handgun laws.

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    If you could ask 12 questions to a top authority on handgun laws what would they be? what would you like to have clarified in regards to handgun laws in Michigan. We want to compile at least 12 questions.

    They could be on lawful purpose, transport, OC, CC, brandishing, IWB holster/OC, etc. If you can think of one or 12 post them here and we will compile the 12 best ones to try and work on getting answers to.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    The Michigan State constitution clearly states that Every person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state. Why, then, are there laws written which dilute this right?

    Why is it a crime to conceal a weapon? Generally, a criminal would conceal with intent to commit another crime. Why, then, should it also be a crime to conceal? Shouldn't this law be redefined as "concealing with criminal intent" or "concealing during the commission of a crime"?

    How many crimes have been solved due to the gun registration system in Michigan? Further, how many criminals have been stopped from acquiring handguns due to the registration system?

    Currently, the law prohibits carriage of firearms in places like banks, schools, and college campuses. However, regardless of these laws, history shows that these are places where crime with firearms are the most prevalent. It is quite clear that criminals will act without regard to the law. Why, then, is it prohibited for the otherwise law-abiding to carry in these places for their own personal protection?

    There's a start. I'd give more but it's getting late therefore my brain is turning off.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    1. Transport: Why are we denied our right to self defense while in our vehicle?(w/o cpl, of course)
    2. Clarify "open". I think we all know why...
    3. CEZ (aka PFZ) Why are we denied our right to self defense and that of children in a school?
    4. Clarify the issue of open carry on a boat. I've voiced my opinion of this, and still haven't seen a law that specifically outlaws it, but law enforcement obviously thinks otherwise.
    5. Why the specification of no open carry in a bank without a CPL? The BGs will carry in with his bad intentions regardless of the law, why exclude a non-CPL holder from his right to self defense in a situation where there is a heightened need for it?
    I'll think of more tomorrow... I'm tired

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    Venator wrote:
    If you could ask 12 questions to a top authority on handgun laws what would they be? what would you like to have clarified in regards to handgun laws in Michigan. We want to compile at least 12 questions.

    They could be on lawful purpose, transport, OC, CC, brandishing, IWB holster/OC, etc. If you can think of one or 12 post them here and we will compile the 12 best ones to try and work on getting answers to.
    Not necessarily in any order.

    1. Lawful Transport (Lawful Purpose) without CPL
    2. Lawful purpose
    3. Lawful Open Carry in CPZ's with CPL, to include PreK-12 (Private or Public)
    4. Brandishing
    5. Post Office OC or CC with CPL, to include Parking Lots (Lawful Purpose)
    6. Non-Student/Student/Faculty OC or CC with CPL on UM, WSU and MSU Properties
    7. IWB Holsters, considered concealed, yes or no
    8. OC or CC w/without permit/license of non-residents while visiting Michigan
    9. Lawful OC or CC w/without CPL on/in a bicycle, ATV's, boats, etc.
    10.Lawful OC or CCw/without CPL on/in a car, bicycle, ATV's, etc. while on your own property
    11. Define Michigan's RTKBA
    12. Lawful OC or CC with CPL for providing security for an entity that's leasing or was donated space located within a CPZ


    Edit: Spelling entity



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    Define Lawful Ownership ,Transport, [ all modes],CC and/orOC,[display],CPL class {and why we need to pay for it ? ],Gun Free Zones ,[ with clarification on ALL]including Mall ,private open to public !

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    1. Some of the people allowed to carry concealed in Pistol Free Zones"are not "Peace Officers" nor have they had any more training than any other CPL holder; why does the state of Michigan allow these CPL holders to carry in "Pistol Free Zones" while forbidding others to do so?

    2. Why does Michigan continue to demand the registration of pistols?

    3. Since we already have a law regarding carrying a firearm or dangerous weapon with unlawful intent (MCL 750.226), why do we prohibit concealed carry without a license and prohibit carry (OC and CC) in certain venues?



    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand ?

    How does notifying a police officer that you are armed make anybody safer ?

    Will vehicle carry ever be treated the same as carry in your home in Michigan like it is in most states ?

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    Some good questions, but I meant questions about current law to clarify things more. Not questions on why a law is in effect, or why don't you repeal all gun laws.

    More like what is lawful transport, can you drive around with a handgun unloaded and in a case in your car without a CPL. Or are the examples given in the statute the only lawful purposes? Things like that.

    Can a non CPL holder OCin a Kroger's (they sell liquor). Right now it looks like that can't OC In any place that sells any kind of liquor, either for drinking on site orretail.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Some good questions, but I meant questions about current law to clarify things more. Not questions on why a law is in effect, or why don't you repeal all gun laws.

    More like what is lawful transport, can you drive around with a handgun unloaded and in a case in your car without a CPL. Or are the examples given in the statute the only lawful purposes? Things like that.

    Can a non CPL holder OCin a Kroger's (they sell liquor). Right now it looks like that can't OC In any place that sells any kind of liquor, either for drinking on site orretail.
    I was under the impression that it was for places which sell for consumption... now I'm gonna have to go look that up...again...

    Why does Michigan prohibit postal carriers from packing on the job? If I delivered mail in Flint/Detroit/Saginaw, etc., I would want to be able to carry. Mail carriers are in possession of valuable items every day. At least one state allows this. Virginia??VT? I'll have to look this up, too. If only I could remember where I saw it.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

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    Venator wrote:
    Some good questions, but I meant questions about current law to clarify things more.* Not questions on why a law is in effect, or why don't you repeal all gun laws.*

    *More like what is lawful transport, can you drive around with a handgun unloaded and in a case in your car without a CPL.* Or are the examples given in the statute the only lawful purposes?* Things like that.

    Can a non CPL holder OC*in a Kroger's (they sell liquor).* Right now it looks like that can't OC In any place that sells any kind of liquor, either for drinking on site or*retail.
    Here's my best question:

    Does preemption apply to public Universities, such as The University of Michigan, Western Michigan University, Eastern Michigan University, Ferris State, Grand Valley State, and Michigan State? These public universities have boards of regents that are publicly elected officials.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Some good questions, but I meant questions about current law to clarify things more. Not questions on why a law is in effect, or why don't you repeal all gun laws.

    More like what is lawful transport, can you drive around with a handgun unloaded and in a case in your car without a CPL. Or are the examples given in the statute the only lawful purposes? Things like that.

    Can a non CPL holder OCin a Kroger's (they sell liquor). Right now it looks like that can't OC In any place that sells any kind of liquor, either for drinking on site orretail.
    Here's my best question:

    Does preemption apply to public Universities, such as The University of Michigan, Western Michigan University, Eastern Michigan University, Ferris State, Grand Valley State, and Michigan State? These public universities have boards of regents that are publicly elected officials.
    That's a good one and the kind of questions I'm looking for.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    I was under the impression that it was for places which sell for consumption... now I'm gonna have to go look that up...again...

    Why does Michigan prohibit postal carriers from packing on the job? If I delivered mail in Flint/Detroit/Saginaw, etc., I would want to be able to carry. Mail carriers are in possession of valuable items every day. At least one state allows this. Virginia??VT? I'll have to look this up, too. If only I could remember where I saw it.
    That is the question I have in to the MSP. If you look at 750.234d it doesn't state for consumption on premises as it does in the CPL statute.

    So for now I would advise not to carry in any place that has any kind of liquor licence unless you have a CPL. I know of one department in the metro area thatmay arrest for it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    These are some of the questions I have so far. Any others? Comments on the ones below?

    1) Clarifythe definition of"open carry". Is an inside the waist band (IWB) holster considered concealed?

    2) Can a person without a CPL OC on a boat?

    3) What is considered Lawful Transport?

    4)What is considered a lawful purpose for transporting a handgun without a CPL?

    5) Can a CPL holder OC in those places mentioned in Sec. 5o. (1) and does that include preK-12 (Private or Public)?

    6) Can Non-Student/Student/Faculty OC or CC with CPL or OC without a CPL on any college or university Properties, including UM, WSU and MSU?

    7) Can a non-resident now possess a handgun in Michigan and can they OC without a CPL?

    8) Can a person without a CPL OC on/in a bicycle, ATV's, boats, snowmobile, etc. Can they on their own property.

    9) Can a person OC or CC with CPL if providing security for an entity that's leasing or was donated space located within a location defined in Sec.5o (1)?




    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    5) Can a CPL holder OC in those places mentioned in Sec. 5o. (1) and does that include K-12 (Private or Public)?

    IIRC, Pre-K is alsoincluded for the school prohibition.

    ETA: Other then that,what you have so farlooks good to me.



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    Venator wrote:

    6) Can Non-Student/Student/Faculty OC or CC with CPL or OC without a CPL on any college or university Properties, including UM, WSU and MSU?
    [/font]
    Let's take this one step further. Due to preemption, can a school authoritatively deny any person (regardless of affiliation with the University) the right to carry a firearm on campus property, other than as defined in Michigan Compiled Law?

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    Leader wrote:
    Will vehicle carry ever be treated the same as carry in your home in Michigan like it is in most states ?
    Ive got one question. When I first thought of it, I thought it was more of a joke but then it became a little more of a serious one.

    What if you live in your car? Could your car then be considered your home? What about people living in RV's, boats? Sound like a goofy question, but you know, maybe not so goofy. Hmm......
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    Sadly with this economy this is a great question.

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    Is not a persons home their castle ? A house is not a home .

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    My Questions:

    If "ignorance of the law is no excuse," why can't the average Joe easily look up and understand all of the Michigan firearm laws? (The foregoing is probably more rhetorical in nature)

    1. I need a clarification of the concealed and open carry laws...a final word, if you will, that all can understand and abide by (or knowingly disobey at their peril).

    Does anyone else think it's high time Michigan's firearm laws were reviewed and updated?

    Does ANY legislator, past or present, believe that a firearm law will deter a criminal?



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    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Leader wrote:
    Will vehicle carry ever be treated the same as carry in your home in Michigan like it is in most states ?
    Ive got one question. When I first thought of it, I thought it was more of a joke but then it became a little more of a serious one.

    What if you live in your car? Could your car then be considered your home? What about people living in RV's, boats? Sound like a goofy question, but you know, maybe not so goofy. Hmm......
    The Saginaw County Prosecuter addressed this when he was teaching my CPL class.... sorta....

    IIRC, his thought was that you'd have to prove that you lived there, and that it would probably have to be on your property and maybe disabled in order for a "castle doctrine" to be in effect. I think he also mentioned that if you moved it, it would be a vehicle, so a CPL would be required to have a loaded handgun.

    Sorry to go off-topic... these are good questions though.

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    Regular Member Gosirr's Avatar
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    We need a legal definition of federal law, on the pistol free zones, oc and cc.
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    Gosirr wrote:
    We need a legal definition of federal law, on the pistol free zones, oc and cc.

    As far as I'm concerned, this is enough proof for me:

    “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, [/b]Michigan[/b] [/b]State[/b] Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

    “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free [highlight= #88ffff]Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"



    ETA: School zone thread


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...chool+zone+act

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    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Michigan CPL holders are exempt from the federal law regarding school zones!


    Short answer:

    Since all MI CPL licenses are limited to residents of Michigan and they undergo a background check, there is an exception to the Federal prohibition of guns in school zones for MI CPL licensees. See: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf


    Long answer:
    Federal Law does provide an exemption for CPL holders,
    see 2(B)(ii),
    "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;"

    The BATF interpretation of the law (see link above) is that this
    exemption does not extend to permit holders who are legal to carry in
    a given state by virtue of a reciprocity or recognition statute.

    Example: If a Colorado resident with a Colorado
    Concealed Handgun Permit carries in Michigan, which (a) recognizes
    the permit and (b)has no state provisions barring open carry by
    a permit holder in a school zone, then that Colorado Concealed
    Handgun Permit holder is nonetheless still in violation of Federal law
    if he or she carries in a school zone. (This is very easy to do just driving
    around anywhere within 1,000ft.)



    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    Michigan CPL holders are exempt from the federal law regarding school zones!


    Short answer:

    Since all MI CPL licenses are limited to residents of Michigan and they undergo a background check, there is an exception to the Federal prohibition of guns in school zones for MI CPL licensees. See: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf


    Long answer:
    Federal Law does provide an exemption for CPL holders,
    see 2(B)(ii),
    "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;"

    The BATF interpretation of the law (see link above) is that this
    exemption does not extend to permit holders who are legal to carry in
    a given state by virtue of a reciprocity or recognition statute.

    Example: If a Colorado resident with a Colorado
    Concealed Handgun Permit carries in Michigan, which (a) recognizes
    the permit and (b)has no state provisions barring open carry by
    a permit holder in a school zone, then that Colorado Concealed
    Handgun Permit holder is nonetheless still in violation of Federal law
    if he or she carries in a school zone. (This is very easy to do just driving
    around anywhere within 1,000ft.)


    What about what Doug posted?

    if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
    do so by the State in which the school zone is located
    or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of
    the State or political subdivision requires that, before
    an individual obtain s [/font][/font][/font]such a license, the law
    enforcement authorities of the State or political
    subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;
    [/font][/font]
    Seeing that non-CPL holders still need to obtain a "License to purchase" I guess if you purchased your pistol with a Purchase Permit you should be covered and not have to worry about the 1000' rule.

    Clear as mud!


    So I guess if you got your pistol legally with a PP or if you have a CPL the 1000' is void for you.



    [/font][/font]
    [/font][/font]
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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