1 Handed Handgun Mechanics

grumpycoconut · Feb 5, 2009

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I was just in the California part of the forum and readthat one of the guys there was describing how a hand injury had deadlined his gun handling and it got me thinking about how we all might handle our pistolas with only one paw.

Things that have worked for me:

-Racking the slide or returning a locked backslide to battery

a. Hook the rear sight on your belt, boot heel or anything handy that the slide will grab and push the pistol forward therebymanipulating theslide.

b. Shove the flat top of the slide straight into the meaty part of your thigh then push in and forward until the slide releases. Only really useful in returning the slide to battery but might work ok for clearing a stove pipe.

-Magazine change

a. Drop the magazine (sticky magazines might require a shake), drop to one knee,hold the pistol between your thigh and calf, shove in a new mag, return the slide to battery, keep fighting

b. Drop the magazine, drop to both knees, hold the gun between your knees (mag well facing away from you), insert new mag, return slide to battery, keep fighting

- With both of these mag change techniques, I've seen most people stand back up before they re-engage the target. I've never understood this. I've always thought it smarter to get the gun to speaking while still down on the ground and only then get back up and moving.

-Shooting

No big tricks here, but I find that canting my hand inboard a bit helps me cope with recoil better and if I'm working left handed, it lines the sights up in front of my right eye better.

Now I know some folks might see some 4 rule violations here, like pointing a gun at one's self, but these are emergency measures where I seeadded risk as being acceptable. Additionally, I consider these safe techniques to practice live fire provided that one practices them dry first and always remembers to keep one's booger hook off the bang switch.

Who else has one handed techniques to share? How about revolvers? I've never given serious thought to one hand reloading my J frame.

eyesopened · Feb 6, 2009

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There is some one handed techniques shown in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGIgrcgxBA

grumpycoconut · Feb 6, 2009

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Good movie clip! Good execution of one handed reloads, especially the magazine shake and tooth extraction techniques. My favorite part though was Paul Newman playing sniper with a Smith Body Guard. I love those little hunchbacks.

superdemon · Feb 6, 2009

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I canchamber a round inmy Glock with one hand.

I put my four fingers on the slide, as far towards the barrel as possible. My thumb goes under the backstrap, with the meaty part my thumbpad way down on the handle, near the butt.

By pulling my fingers back, pushing my thumb down, and kinda snapping my wrist, I can chamber a round. I can do it with both hands.

The description doesn't do it justice, I would have to demonstrate to make it clear.

colt45ws · Feb 6, 2009

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I know exactly what your talking about. I do it to check the chamber one handed on my USP. I should see if I can chamber it..

http://colt45.ws/vids/USPload.wmv 2.8MB WMV

Not exactly the same, but in the same line of thought.

superdemon · Feb 7, 2009

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colt45ws wrote:

I know exactly what your talking about. I do it to check the chamber one handed on my USP. I should see if I can chamber it..

http://colt45.ws/vids/USPload.wmv 2.8MB WMV

Not exactly the same, but in the same line of thought.

Yeah! That's pretty much exactly it.

bordsnbikes · Feb 7, 2009

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One handed reloading, especially off hand is a good idea to practice. Because when your hit, it's always the most inconvenient place, murphys law.

I freaking love that movie. Especially the opening scene!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xsaMcw69D8&feature=related

Sarah Silverman kicks ass as the bitch who won't shut her mouth, and I love the line "Shut the c---s mouth or I'll come over there and f--- start her head"

marine77 · Feb 7, 2009

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eyesopened wrote:

There is some one handed techniques shown in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGIgrcgxBA

These are good techniques, but who in the hell would waste so many rounds and not hit anything, aaahhhhh only hollywood.

superdemon · Feb 8, 2009

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marine77 wrote:

eyesopened wrote:

There is some one handed techniques shown in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGIgrcgxBA

Click to expand...

These are good techniques, but who in the hell would waste so many rounds and not hit anything, aaahhhhh only hollywood.

But the one guy that kept his cover, and kept his cool came out unscathed. The idiots moving from cover to cover were the ones hurt.

grumpycoconut · Feb 8, 2009

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marine77 wrote:

These are good techniques, but who in the hell would waste so many rounds and not hit anything, aaahhhhh only hollywood.

Anyone who's done real force on force with simunitionshas experienced the frustration of shooting as well as one can and missing. Targets that shoot back and move aggressively are harder to hit than most people think. In my experience most of the hits in a sim gun fight are almost accidental and are rarely if ever placed where one truly wants them. We all know that stress degrades performance. Sim stress is pretty intense but I doubtit replicates real gun fight stress. Trainers with whom Ihave worked who have heard it from real world shootersreport back that 4-5 pistol rounds is usually just a good starting point in a gun fight and seldom a fight stopper.

Considering this is hollywood, I'm thinking one magazine per bad guy is not toobad and pretty accurate.

superdemon · Feb 9, 2009

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grumpycoconut wrote:

marine77 wrote:

These are good techniques, but who in the hell would waste so many rounds and not hit anything, aaahhhhh only hollywood.

Click to expand...

Anyone who's done real force on force with simunitionshas experienced the frustration of shooting as well as one can and missing. Targets that shoot back and move aggressively are harder to hit than most people think. In my experience most of the hits in a sim gun fight are almost accidental and are rarely if ever placed where one truly wants them. We all know that stress degrades performance. Sim stress is pretty intense but I doubtit replicates real gun fight stress. Trainers with whom Ihave worked who have heard it from real world shootersreport back that 4-5 pistol rounds is usually just a good starting point in a gun fight and seldom a fight stopper.

Considering this is hollywood, I'm thinking one magazine per bad guy is not toobad and pretty accurate.

I've gotten so accustomed to the Rapid Deployment style of response, that I don't even think about what is coming back at me anymore. We train in that style so much at work that when we train with other agencies, they wonder why I am standing in the middle of a hallway, iscosceles stance, with no cover. And I rarely get his, as the other side is throwing bad rounds and missing...

grumpycoconut · Feb 9, 2009

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superdemon wrote:

I've gotten so accustomed to the Rapid Deployment style of response

Please define "rapid deployment style of response". It sounds as if you trust in armor,firepower and agressionto keep you safe while you charge straight up the middle. Are you talking about the straight for the throat speed anddirectness sometimes requiredwhen working an active shooter response?

superdemon · Feb 9, 2009

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grumpycoconut wrote:

superdemon wrote:

I've gotten so accustomed to the Rapid Deployment style of response

Click to expand...

Please define "rapid deployment style of response". It sounds as if you trust in armor,firepower and agressionto keep you safe while you charge straight up the middle. Are you talking about the straight for the throat speed anddirectness sometimes requiredwhen working an active shooter response?

It's not "sometimes" required, it's just how it is done now.

"Rapid Deployment", very generally, is this..

1. First unit to get to an active shooter (such as a school shooter) situation goes in with the gear he has. If you are lucky enough to have an AR or a Mossberg in the trunk, you grab it and go. If it is just one of you, then you go. If you are lucky enough for two or three to get there at the same time, you go in. No time to stop and posse up in the parking lot putting on flak jackets, helmets, and crap. No waiting for SWAT or a CRU, either.

2. It is constant, rapid movement towards the sound of the gunshots. No duck and cover crap. Run up the hallway as fast as you can accurately shoot. We are drilled that each gunshot is a child dying, so get your ass there.

3. You don't stop and render aid to anyone who is injured.

4. Eliminate the target, or pin the target in a room with no hostages. If you can pin the target in a clean room, then you can get yourself to cover where you can still cover the room, and wait for backup.

5. If the target is in a room with hostages, and still firing, you go in wrap-around style, and take them out before they take you out or any more hostages.

So yeah. It's not faith in armor or anything like that, it's the knowledge that through training, experience and skill, you should be able to out-shoot some kid with his dad's hunting rifle.

Speed, surprise, and force of aggression.

Lots of people will lock up when you come running up the hallway like a madman.

grumpycoconut · Feb 9, 2009

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That level of speed and agression are excellent tactics when the situation calls for them but they have limited application and very highpotentialbutcher's billsthat you need to be willing to pay. I believe, like you do, that insome situations speed and violence of action can carry the day, but one must guard against the tendancy to use that particularhammer in all situations.

SWAT and other teams still use crash and dash tactics on a daily basis butthe vast majority of situations can be best resolved with other approaches. The team that I was on practiceddynamic entries until we could clear/secure a 2000sq/ft, multi story house in under 15 seconds, but the majority of our real world work was done in the surround and call out style. We would then follow up with a slow and deliberate covert insertion and clear that depended on a carefull "inches and angles" approach. Even if the target was known to be heavliy armed and violent, our guiding logic was that time solves all problems. There is seldom reason to force a fight that doesn't need forcing. 999 times out of 1000 bad guys quit when they know that they have no other viable options and they aren't startled into a bad response. This samedeliberate approach was also our stock in trade in patrol. You could say that fools rush in where angels sneak and snipe.

LEOs and soldiers get paid and are expected to run to the sound of the guns. That puts them in a different category all together. Of course most folks aren't hunters of men and will never have call to useany of the tools described above. Most folks who do have to resort to gun fighting skills will be on their own in their own houses or on the street where what's needed when things fall in the bucket is a strong static defense or a fightingwithdrawal.

superdemon · Feb 9, 2009

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grumpycoconut wrote:

That level of speed and agression are excellent tactics when the situation calls for them but they have limited application and very highpotentialbutcher's billsthat you need to be willing to pay. I believe, like you do, that insome situations speed and violence of action can carry the day, but one must guard against the tendancy to use that particularhammer in all situations.

SWAT and other teams still use crash and dash tactics on a daily basis butthe vast majority of situations can be best resolved with other approaches. The team that I was on practiceddynamic entries until we could clear/secure a 2000sq/ft, multi story house in under 15 seconds, but the majority of our real world work was done in the surround and call out style. We would then follow up with a slow and deliberate covert insertion and clear that depended on a carefull "inches and angles" approach. Even if the target was known to be heavliy armed and violent, our guiding logic was that time solves all problems. There is seldom reason to force a fight that doesn't need forcing. 999 times out of 1000 bad guys quit when they know that they have no other viable options and they aren't startled into a bad response. This samedeliberate approach was also our stock in trade in patrol. You could say that fools rush in where angels sneak and snipe.

LEOs and soldiers get paid and are expected to run to the sound of the guns. That puts them in a different category all together. Of course most folks aren't hunters of men and will never have call to useany of the tools described above. Most folks who do have to resort to gun fighting skills will be on their own in their own houses or on the street where what's needed when things fall in the bucket is a strong static defense or a fightingwithdrawal.

Excellent, well versed post sir.

Are you now out of the business that put you on dynamic entries? I only ask because Rapid Deployment has only come to the forefront in the last 5 years or so, and has only really been taught widespread for the last 2 or so. I was on the first training session in the Commonwealth, 4 years ago, and it has even evolved since then.

Of course, there will always be uses for the SWAT style of mope and creep, but Rapid Deployment is tailored more towards things like active school shooters, ala the Virginia Tech type thing. The barricaded lone subject, or the barricaded subject not actively shooting hostages does not get Rapid Deployment tactics.

We had a guy in our class, and old-school guy, who totally did not get the concept. He was of the thinking of "protect myself first". Rapid Deployment demands that you put everyone else ahead of yourself.

He spoke up in class, and said, "So you want us to run in on a suicide mission." The instructor looked at him, and said, "No, you're going in on a homocide mission." Our department released two officers, as they told the chief that they didn't think they could go in on their own. They said it on the record, and that was used to ask them to resign. Trust me, I never want to pull the trigger on another human being, but if I see a person pulling the trigger on kids, I most certainly will. I don't want to live with the thought of killing another human being (especially a kid), but if I have to, I most certainly will. I'd rather live with the thought that I killed one who may have killed many more, rather than wait outside for SWAT or a CRU.

Everytime we run sims, we loose officers. We have yet to get through a sim without an officer leaving the building feet first. However, it's been pretty much proven that in real situations, the shooter will usually turn the weapon on themselves or surrender rather than fight the police.

During a sim, our guys located and neutralized a subject in a 40,000 square foot building in a one minute thirty seven seconds from the time we breached the door. That is running full-tilt-boogie and still being able to shoot accurately.

Rapid Deployment has yet to be used to neutralize and actual active shooter, so it remains to be seen if it is truly effective. I suppose that you could count the Alrose Villa shooting in Columbus, OH as a Rapid Deployment incident, and it was extremely effective, even though there was some slight staging of the crew before they went in.

grumpycoconut · Feb 9, 2009

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"Rapid Deployment", Active Shooter Response", call it what you want, has been around a bit longer than you are familiar with. It was a response to the 1999 Columbine HS shooting. NTOA, CATO (Cal. Assoc. of Tactical Ofc.) and others started teaching it within a year of Columbine.

Its been evolving from day one. I was first taught to use a 4 mandiamond formation. Of course this was modifiable as the numbers of available shooters dictated, but the idea of a solo hunterwas pretty quickly dismissed. 2 man hunter elements were about the minimum deemed effective. Of course in the LA area you have access to a seemingly endless number of cops when things go bad.

The only active shooter incident I know of that was stopped by a lone officer was the 2001 Santana HS shooting. In that one there just happened to be an officer on campus (can't recall is he was on or off duty) when things went bad. He cornered the shooter in a bathroom and bunkered down until help came. Despite his immediate action that one still resulted in 2 dead and 13 wounded.

superdemon · Feb 9, 2009

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The last training session I went to, we went in solo, 2 man, 3 man, and 4 man. It has evolved to the point of not waiting for the 4 man team to show up. If you get out of your car, and you hear shots, you go in. They may have initially dismissed solo missions, but we are now actively teaching it.

Of course, one man going in is not "Plan A", but it is what it is.

I realize RD was a response to Columbine, but you didn't see it as part of LEO basic training until about 5 years ago in this area. It was an option for in-service training in 2001 here.

grumpycoconut · Feb 9, 2009

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It looks like the tactics training pendulum has swung to the other extreme. At the risk of sounding like a Cassandra, its conceivable that some young hot shot is going to be added to the FBI's LEOKA study because he charged into a liqour store robbery or DV incident before he had cover officers because he was taught to charge in under one specific set of circumstances and he over generalized.

One riot, One Ranger gets my testosterone pumping too but I'm no superhero. Fight smart, fight effective, stack the deck in you favor every chance you get.

Remenber the rules of gun fighting!!! 1. Bring a gun 2. Bring a friend with a gun

r6-rider · Feb 9, 2009

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grumpycoconut wrote:

Fight smart, fight effective, stack the deck in you favor every chance you get.

exactly!

as our drill SGT used to say... "if you aint cheating you aint winning"

marine77 · Feb 9, 2009

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superdemon wrote:

grumpycoconut wrote:

That level of speed and agression are excellent tactics when the situation calls for them but they have limited application and very highpotentialbutcher's billsthat you need to be willing to pay. I believe, like you do, that insome situations speed and violence of action can carry the day, but one must guard against the tendancy to use that particularhammer in all situations.

SWAT and other teams still use crash and dash tactics on a daily basis butthe vast majority of situations can be best resolved with other approaches. The team that I was on practiceddynamic entries until we could clear/secure a 2000sq/ft, multi story house in under 15 seconds, but the majority of our real world work was done in the surround and call out style. We would then follow up with a slow and deliberate covert insertion and clear that depended on a carefull "inches and angles" approach. Even if the target was known to be heavliy armed and violent, our guiding logic was that time solves all problems. There is seldom reason to force a fight that doesn't need forcing. 999 times out of 1000 bad guys quit when they know that they have no other viable options and they aren't startled into a bad response. This samedeliberate approach was also our stock in trade in patrol. You could say that fools rush in where angels sneak and snipe.

LEOs and soldiers get paid and are expected to run to the sound of the guns. That puts them in a different category all together. Of course most folks aren't hunters of men and will never have call to useany of the tools described above. Most folks who do have to resort to gun fighting skills will be on their own in their own houses or on the street where what's needed when things fall in the bucket is a strong static defense or a fightingwithdrawal.

Click to expand...

Excellent, well versed post sir.

Are you now out of the business that put you on dynamic entries? I only ask because Rapid Deployment has only come to the forefront in the last 5 years or so, and has only really been taught widespread for the last 2 or so. I was on the first training session in the Commonwealth, 4 years ago, and it has even evolved since then.

Of course, there will always be uses for the SWAT style of mope and creep, but Rapid Deployment is tailored more towards things like active school shooters, ala the Virginia Tech type thing. The barricaded lone subject, or the barricaded subject not actively shooting hostages does not get Rapid Deployment tactics.

We had a guy in our class, and old-school guy, who totally did not get the concept. He was of the thinking of "protect myself first". Rapid Deployment demands that you put everyone else ahead of yourself.

He spoke up in class, and said, "So you want us to run in on a suicide mission." The instructor looked at him, and said, "No, you're going in on a homocide mission." Our department released two officers, as they told the chief that they didn't think they could go in on their own. They said it on the record, and that was used to ask them to resign. Trust me, I never want to pull the trigger on another human being, but if I see a person pulling the trigger on kids, I most certainly will. I don't want to live with the thought of killing another human being (especially a kid), but if I have to, I most certainly will. I'd rather live with the thought that I killed one who may have killed many more, rather than wait outside for SWAT or a CRU.

Everytime we run sims, we loose officers. We have yet to get through a sim without an officer leaving the building feet first. However, it's been pretty much proven that in real situations, the shooter will usually turn the weapon on themselves or surrender rather than fight the police.

During a sim, our guys located and neutralized a subject in a 40,000 square foot building in a one minute thirty seven seconds from the time we breached the door. That is running full-tilt-boogie and still being able to shoot accurately.

Rapid Deployment has yet to be used to neutralize and actual active shooter, so it remains to be seen if it is truly effective. I suppose that you could count the Alrose Villa shooting in Columbus, OH as a Rapid Deployment incident, and it was extremely effective, even though there was some slight staging of the crew before they went in.

Seems to me though that a real psycho who would be willing to do something big, and take as many as they could would be able to use that tactic to their advantage, aka boobytraps.

1 Handed Handgun Mechanics

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