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Thread: Wisconsin-specific OC pamphlets

  1. #1
    Regular Member Johnny Stiletto's Avatar
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    Hello all,

    I have been spending a considerable amount of time in the last couple of days in the Michigan forum readingvarious OC stories. Many of the posters mention handing out pamphlets when being confronted by the public. I think this is a great idea and I personally wouldn't mind having Wisconsin-specific information readily availablefor thecurious public. If this has already been discussed here, I appologise.

    Anyway, if we can get some knowledgeable people from this forum to throw together some good Wisconsin-specific information on the legality OC, I will personally volunteer todesignaprintable, professional lookingpamphlet and either upload it here or host it on one of my domains.

    Any thoughts?



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    Wisconsin law does not explicitly address open carry. Open carry is implicitly legal by tortuous legal reasoning.

    I doubt that the legality of OC will fit into a pamphlet, else someone would already have done it. Indeed, I seem to recall that there is a 'pamphlet' here somewhere.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=3935 downloaded 63 times. There are seven posts that mention the word pamphlet. The pamphlet thread has been addressed as recently a 8 Jan 09

    This is very much what all the quibbling (a.k.a. divisiveness) here is about, how to distill our legal resoning into something that will convince the public and the powers-that-be of the propriety - the 'properness' - of OC.

    I wish you the best and will help how I can, preferably via direct questions.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Johnny Stiletto's Avatar
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    Thanks, Doug.

    The pamphlet above is along the lines on what I imagined as appropriate information for the limited sources we have.

    Unfortunately, the limited amount of times it was downloaded tells me that there may not be as big of a demand for something like that as I imagined. I guess nobody really even has a good clue on how many people actually OC in Wisconsin. And of those people, how many are willing want to take time out of their day to talk to other curious citizens about the (very) limited options we actually have for carrying firearms.

    All that said, though, my offer still stands. I realize I may be asking for a lot, but if anyone else likes the idea and is interested in jumping in on a collective effort to come up with, and somewhat agree on the best information and sources that we could fit on to a pamphlet and make something that we can all be proud to carry with us, I'll do the dirty work!

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    Johnny Stiletto wrote:
    Thanks, Doug.

    The pamphlet above is along the lines on what I imagined as appropriate information for the limited sources we have.
    I am not certain what you mean by 'limited sources we have'. We have the whole of the Wisconsin Statutes and some small understanding of them.

    Johnny Stiletto wrote:
    I guess nobody really even has a good clue on how many people actually OC in Wisconsin.
    If you are looking for a quantitative answer then you're right. We don't even know what fraction of the users here OC. Qualitatively, very few in Wisconsin OC. IIRC, about 1% of South Carolina CCW, 30,000 permits to about 3 million.

    Johnny Stiletto wrote:
    And of those people, how many are willing want to take time out of their day to talk to other curious citizens about the (very) limited options we actually have for carrying firearms.
    I wouldn't limit speakers to those that claim to OC. All of us here would likely talk about carrying firearms advocacy and advocating for greater freedoms. The problem is that, while there is a right to speech, there is no duty to listen and few venues for the interested and curious to gather - other than right here.

    Imagine that you want to learn the law about guns in Wisconsin, ask - right here - 'where do I start?' 'Where do I read next' 'What does case law have to do with it, or annotations?' Then distill the answers that you get so that they make sense to you into a pamphlet format.

    We, *I*, can't see the forest for the trees any more and there are forty-eleven 'guides' shouting, 'this way' and 'that way'. Maybe you can make sense of it for all of us.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Johnny Stiletto's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    I am not certain what you mean by 'limited sources we have'. We have the whole of the Wisconsin Statutes and some small understanding of them.
    I am well aware that we have firearms restrictions. We also have restrictions on where we can ride a bicycle.

    Is there is a law written that specifically states that we can ride a bicycle in Wisconsin? No, but we can. And there are resources the state provides on where we can ride a bicycle and not get in trouble. If you do a search for bicycling in Wisconsin on Google you will find a lot more resources that you will for carrying a firearm on your belt.

    Doug Huffman wrote:
    I wouldn't limit speakers to those that claim to OC. All of us here would likely talk about carrying firearms advocacy and advocating for greater freedoms. The problem is that, while there is a right to speech, there is no duty to listen and few venues for the interested and curious to gather - other than right here.

    Imagine that you want to learn the law about guns in Wisconsin, ask - right here - 'where do I start?' 'Where do I read next' 'What does case law have to do with it, or annotations?' Then distill the answers that you get so that they make sense to you into a pamphlet format.

    We, *I*, can't see the forest for the trees any more and there are forty-eleven 'guides' shouting, 'this way' and 'that way'. Maybe you can make sense of it for all of us.
    That's fine, but I'm talking about literature that could help answer a few common questions people have if they approach someone OCing. I not trying to write anyone off. As I stated in the first post, I was reading OC stories in the Michigan forum and I liked the idea of having pamphlets. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

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    Johnny S:

    I certainly do not want to discourage your ambition in the least. It is extremely important that our message get out to the general public. Discussing the same issues over and over on this forum by us members will not get the job done. I'm not sure about a pamphlet though. My experience that if something is more than a page long people generally won't take the time to read it, at least to the degree that they really understand it. Politicians try that every election year summer. Nearly all the pamphlets end up laying in the street. I feel your fundamental idea is good but maybe a more effective approach would be a simple card. Something eye catching with a provocative saying. Some things that come to mind could be: The governor says "Wear it on your hip" in large letters with smaller letters beneath reading protect yourself with open carry. Or maybe: The Department of Justice says open carry is lawful and then State v Hamdan para xx. Or: Wisconsin Supreme Court says Concealed carry NO. Open carry YES. Things along that line. I'm sure all the members of this forum can suggest ideas. Of course there would be the need to pass any such statements before an attorney, but I think something short, sweet and to the point might be more effective than a pamphlet that most people probably wouldn't read and if they did they probably would not understand what it is all about. On the other hand a handout card such as I described will more than likely pique people's curiosity an intice a number of them to ask what it's all about.

    Another thought: I attend 15 to 20 gun shows a year. A number of them in Wisconsin. What surprises me is that even though 75% of the voters in 1998 voted to add Article I section 25 to the state constitution hardly anyone I ask at gun shows know what the words to the amendment are. The most common answer is "How the hell do I know"? This isn't out in the general public. It is at a gathering of gun enthusiasts. If they don't know our constitutional gun rights how do we expect the general public to know them. Perhaps just a simple bumper sticker to put on our vehicles and to hand out that simply contains the words to the constitutional amendment. The WISCONSIN CONSTITUTION Article I section 25: The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation orany other lawful purpose. Open carry for personal protection. would be effective in getting the word out.

    Just some rambling thoughts. As some of the members of the forum will tell you. I never say in five words what I can say in twenty.

    I think your fundamental idea that we have to get out and blow our horn is good.





  7. #7
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    Lammie wrote:
    I never say in five words what I can say in twenty.
    "... my ambition is to say in ten sentences what everyone else says in a book - what everyone else does not say in a book." - Nietzsche

    Sorry Lammie-- couldn't resist.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  8. #8
    Regular Member Johnny Stiletto's Avatar
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    Lammie wrote:
    I'm not sure about a pamphlet though. My experience that if something is more than a page long people generally won't take the time to read it, at least to the degree that they really understand it. Politicians try that every election year summer. Nearly all the pamphlets end up laying in the street. I feel your fundamental idea is good but maybe a more effective approach would be a simple card.
    Thanks for the input. I think you make a very good point here. If someone comes up to you just to ask "is that legal?" or "do you have a permit for that thing?", it doesn't necessarily mean they are asking for an entire book of information thrown at them. A simple question should probably result in a simple response, and that could include a small reference guide that points to some informative sources if they decide they want more information later.

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