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Thread: Off-duty cop leaves gun on table, naive adult neighbor plays with gun shooting LEO's bother in law

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/ar...at-killed-man/

    sorry, I wrote kid in the title, I mean't to write man.

    By Stephanie Farr and Dafney Tales
    Philadelphia Daily News
    PHILADELPHIA — As first responders and police flooded a Mayfair street Sunday night during the Super Bowl, many nearby residents suspected that a game-day rivalry had gone wrong.
    But, in reality, the mayhem on Bleigh Avenue near Crispin Street allegedly started with an off-duty cop placing a gun on a table and tragically ended with another man being charged with the murder of the cop's brother-in-law.
    Christopher Donaghy, 27, the son of a Philadelphia police officer, had invited about eight friends and family members to his home on Bleigh Avenue for a Super Bowl party in his basement, according to police.
    Donaghy's brother-in-law Christopher Surma, 29, an off-duty Plymouth Township police officer at the party, allegedly placed a gun he owned on a table sometime during the game, city homicide Capt. James Clark said.
    Another guest at the party, Ronald Parncutt, 49, who lives two doors away from Donaghy, picked up the unattended weapon and "started toying with it," Clark said.
    The 9 mm semiautomatic Glock, which lacked an external safety, discharged once while in Parncutt's hands, striking Donaghy in the back around 8:52 p.m. while he watched the game, Clark said.
    Donaghy was taken to Frankford Hospital-Torresdale, where he was pronounced dead at 10:09 p.m., said Officer Tanya Little, police spokeswoman.
    According to a police source, Donaghy was the son of John Donaghy Jr., an officer with the 14th District, headquartered on West Haines Street near Germantown Avenue, in Germantown.
    Parncutt, whom police described as "very, very" cooperative and "extremely" remorseful, was arrested and charged with murder and related offenses early yesterday morning.
    Surma, the 2 1/2-year Plymouth Township Police Department veteran who left his gun unattended, has not been charged.
    Pam Ewing, 45, who lives cata-corner from Donaghy and Parncutt, said that Parncutt and his family would always attend the "big, loud, noisy" parties at Donaghy's house.
    "Those two houses definitely functioned together," she said. "They would combine parties."
    Ewing said that Parncutt seemed "very nice" and would clean up outside after parties, picking up cigarette butts and firecracker remnants.
    Clark said that he couldn't say why Surma had taken the gun, which was not his service weapon, out of the holster and placed it on a table, but said that the District Attorney's Office is looking into the case to see if charges should be filed.
    Plymouth Township Police Chief Joseph Lawrence said that Surma has been placed on administrative duty pending an internal investigation.
    Disciplinary measures will hinge on the outcome of the Philadelphia investigation, he said.
    "Like everybody, I think it's a tragic thing," Lawrence said. "It's all family and friends involved."
    Lawrence said that Surma is "pretty stressed" over what happened to his sister's husband.
    Clark said that leaving a gun unattended or playing with a gun you've found are just things "you can't do."
    "It's a total tragedy that something like this would happen, you know, during a festive time as the Super Bowl," he said. "It's just something that should not have ever happened."
    Neighbor Angel Nejman, 20, said that he didn't learn until yesterday morning what caused the police activity that kept him running between his door and his television Sunday night.
    "I just thought somebody got into a fight over the game or some stupid stuff," he said. "Now that I know, that just ruins the Super Bowl."
    Copyright 2009 Philadelphia Daily News

    We teach kids to not mess or play with guns if they see them laying around, obviously we need to start telling stupid adults as well, "Don't touch my guns." I'm like a broken record when it comes to telling people who are around me, "Don't touch my guns, ever, they're all loaded and a pull of a trigger will discharge the round."
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    I love how the say Glock 9mm, had no external safety....the gun should have never been placed on a table period that's the first thing and the second, don't touch it! Terribly sad.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Very irresponsible thing for the cop to do. If you're gonnaintroduce a weapon intothe presence of strangers... clear it and secure it 'somewhere' at least. As for the clown who 'fooled with it' 'n actually pulled the trigger... ya can't fix stupid. Surprise , surprise... they really do 'shoot'! 'Wonder how drunk ya gotta be to do that?

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    some people...

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    SNIP Very irresponsible thing for the cop to do.
    Lies, all lies. No cop would ever do anything so irresponsible.

    Guns are incredibly dangerous.This is why many police opposecitizen possession and carry, and rightfully so. Only police are qualified tocarry, by virtue of air-tight psychological testing,extensive training, and deeply instilledobligation to protect their community.

    Of course, the police officer didn't leave his gun lying about. Much less, with live ammunition in it.

    I predictthe facts will come to light that the officer is taking the blame for someone else. In an open-handed act ofcharity this self-lessofficer is protectinga friend or family member, knowing the other personwould be crucified in court, while he, a police officer, might only receive a slap on the wrist for the death of a citizen.

    I do not understand why the rest of you cannot see through thesefalsenews reports and believe anything socompletely unlikely as a police officer endangering others.With his gun, no less.

    (CitSatiricalStatist)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    no external saftey? hmm you would think that the fact that the only way you can get a glock to discharge is to pull the trigger would be good enough... no amount of playing with it minus pulling the trigger can discharge it minus a severe mechanical malfunction/break. Would the media please get educated? Seriously. Freedom of speech or not they have the responsibility to the people to relay accurate and correct information. people take thier word as gods truth.

    also, if you are having a party keep ur gun on you or not at all. and also give people the "briefing". And another thing is dude, i would never touch someone elses gun without A. asking permission B. Clearing it. And another thing.. guns and alcohol? it wasn't stated if anyone was under the influence. It's a super bowl party. Who doesn't drink at a super bowl party? put up ur guns or don't drink. and don't throw it on the coffee table.

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    Regular Member MeBaby's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    SNIP Very irresponsible thing for the cop to do.
    Lies, all lies. No cop would ever do anything so irresponsible.

    Guns are incredibly dangerous.This is why many police opposecitizen possession and carry, and rightfully so. Only police are qualified tocarry, by virtue of air-tight psychological testing,extensive training, and deeply instilledobligation to protect their community.

    Of course, the police officer didn't leave his gun lying about. Much less, with live ammunition in it.

    I predictthe facts will come to light that the officer is taking the blame for someone else. In an open-handed act ofcharity this self-lessofficer is protectinga friend or family member, knowing the other personwould be crucified in court, while he, a police officer, might only receive a slap on the wrist for the death of a citizen.

    I do not understand why the rest of you cannot see through thesefalsenews reports and believe anything socompletely unlikely as a police officer endangering others.With his gun, no less.

    (CitSatiricalStatist)
    Paul Blart, are you impersonating Citizen???? :shock::shock:

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    MeBaby wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    SNIP Very irresponsible thing for the cop to do.
    Lies, all lies. No cop would ever do anything so irresponsible.

    Guns are incredibly dangerous.This is why many police opposecitizen possession and carry, and rightfully so. Only police are qualified tocarry, by virtue of air-tight psychological testing,extensive training, and deeply instilledobligation to protect their community.

    Of course, the police officer didn't leave his gun lying about. Much less, with live ammunition in it.

    I predictthe facts will come to light that the officer is taking the blame for someone else. In an open-handed act ofcharity this self-lessofficer is protectinga friend or family member, knowing the other personwould be crucified in court, while he, a police officer, might only receive a slap on the wrist for the death of a citizen.

    I do not understand why the rest of you cannot see through thesefalsenews reports and believe anything socompletely unlikely as a police officer endangering others.With his gun, no less.

    (CitSatiricalStatist)
    Paul Blart, are you impersonating Citizen???? :shock::shock:



    No. Citizen is impersonating a statist. Its actually kind of fun. It beats figuratively yelling and shaking your fist.

    I hope Tomahawk takes up the satirical pen. He'd be devastating. His insights are already very good.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    MeBaby wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    SNIP Very irresponsible thing for the cop to do.
    Lies, all lies. No cop would ever do anything so irresponsible.

    Guns are incredibly dangerous.This is why many police opposecitizen possession and carry, and rightfully so. Only police are qualified tocarry, by virtue of air-tight psychological testing,extensive training, and deeply instilledobligation to protect their community.

    Of course, the police officer didn't leave his gun lying about. Much less, with live ammunition in it.

    I predictthe facts will come to light that the officer is taking the blame for someone else. In an open-handed act ofcharity this self-lessofficer is protectinga friend or family member, knowing the other personwould be crucified in court, while he, a police officer, might only receive a slap on the wrist for the death of a citizen.

    I do not understand why the rest of you cannot see through thesefalsenews reports and believe anything socompletely unlikely as a police officer endangering others.With his gun, no less.

    (CitSatiricalStatist)
    Paul Blart, are you impersonating Citizen???? :shock::shock:


    hahaha! That's exactly what I thought.



    Very sad. Unfortunate that the idiot that picked it up wasn't the one to get hurt.


    Parncutt, whom police described as "very, very" cooperative and "extremely" remorseful, was arrested and charged with murder and related offenses early yesterday morning.
    wtf? Why not manslaughter? Murder? Did he plan out his stupidity?

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Very irresponsible thing for the cop to do. If you're gonnaintroduce a weapon intothe presence of strangers... clear it and secure it 'somewhere' at least. As for the clown who 'fooled with it' 'n actually pulled the trigger... ya can't fix stupid. Surprise , surprise... they really do 'shoot'! 'Wonder how drunk ya gotta be to do that?
    I grew up with guns in the house. My dad was a state trooper for 27 years and a court baliff for 11 more years after that. When he would come home, first thing, he would always lock his service pistol up like clock work. I'm sorry, butmany of this generation of cops are getting very sloppy and have terrible attitudes.

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    redlegagent wrote:
    SNIP I'm sorry, butmany of this generation of cops are getting very sloppy and have terrible attitudes.
    Getting?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/ar...at-killed-man/

    [SNIP]

    [SNIP]
    The 9 mm semiautomatic Glock, which lacked an external safety, discharged once while in Parncutt's hands, striking Donaghy in the back around 8:52 p.m. while he watched the game, Clark said.
    [SNIP]
    Copyright 2009 Philadelphia Daily News
    Man that article is poorly worded. It should read more like this instead: "Parncutt negligently discharged the 9mm Glock while he had itpointed at Donaghy's back, resulting in Donaghy being shot."

    The "external safety" would be the moron's trigger finger. The gun didn't discharge by itself. The moron forced it to discharge. This is just another piece of editorial journalism that will be used by politicians who want to regulate the manner of firearm construction and continue attempts tolitigate gun-makers until they go out of business.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Stupid, stupid, stupid tragic loss of life. I went to a SB party at the home of friends who also carry. While we will often disarm and leave a sidearm laying on a table for comfort in each other's homes with a small group of our closest friends like when laying around watching a movie, because of the larger group at the SB party and people who are not part of the regular carrying/shooting group, we all stayed holstered. We didn't have to discuss the matter, we all just each made our own decision that it was more responsible. Now how is that a bunch of regular citizens can figure out that in a group of people at a SB party it is more responsible to stay armed even if slightly uncomfortable but a trained LEO doesn't recognize this?

    Just further tragic proof that responsible and wise safe handling, storage, use, etc of a firearm is dependent on the person, not the job or formal training. Now if only our elected officials and the heads of the various LEO organizations that typically speak against citizen carry could figure out this simple fact we could all get on with life instead of having to fight for our constitutionally protected RKBA continuously.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    the super bowl party i went to, i just concealed. i thought about leaving my pistol in my friends car but then i thought about the neighborhood i was in and decided it was better to just take it with me. then when i got in the house i realized it would probly be better if no one even knew i had a firearm so i just kept it a secret, sure enough the whole party went off without a problem. i trust me and ONLY me, no way im about to leave me sidearm somewhere unattended for some idiot to grab and ruin both our lives

    i may of been in the wrong for not informing the owner that i had a gun, but sometimes its better to just let things flow then go by whats "legal"

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Very irresponsible thing for the cop to do. If you're gonnaintroduce a weapon intothe presence of strangers... clear it and secure it 'somewhere' at least. As for the clown who 'fooled with it' 'n actually pulled the trigger... ya can't fix stupid. Surprise , surprise... they really do 'shoot'! 'Wonder how drunk ya gotta be to do that?
    I like how you lay it all on the cop.

    An adultat the home picked up a gun that did not belong to him and pointed it in an unsafe direction and pulled the trigger.

    The adult citizenwas the real problem here.

    Not a good idea for thecopto leave it out but there is probably no law that says he cannot unless there are kids around. I am sure his department will create a policy to stop this in the future. All because of one dumb citizen.

    That being said, it appears that some of us citizens cannot be trusted with guns, huh?

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    CARELESSNESS was the real problem here!

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    CARELESSNESS was the real problem here!
    No, an adult citizen picking up something that other adult citizensknow to be dangerous and then playing with it like it was some toy is the problem.

    How many of us have placed a loaded gun on the table at the shooting range expecting anyone to keep their hands off?

    And then how many times have we walked past loaded guns at the range belonging to other people? Has anyone hereever just walked up and picked up a gun belonging to someone else?

    NO!! Unless you are a complete moron and want your ass beat!

    Maybe the cop thought the adults in the room would have known better. Maybe he was too trusing. So much for giving adult citizensany credit.

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    I have to side with DA here. People need to respect private property. My kids all know they are NOT to touch any of my firearms without my express permission beforehand.

    Even moreso if the house in question is the home of the police officer. He should be able to leave his firearm where he damn well feels like leaving it. It's his HOUSE.

    What goes on in one's house is one's own business, not anyone else's.

    What I see as faults...

    1. Carelessness on the part of the PO. He should have properly secured it as a personal safety measure. Either on his person or in a safe or something. Free floating around on a table doesn't cut it. Property owners have been charged for creating / allowing unsafe conditions on their property where people got hurt.
    2. Stupidity on the part of the neighbor. You don't go putting your grubby mitts on other people's stuff.
    3. Stupidity Part Deux. Putting your fat little finger on the trigger of a firearm you have never fired before. You simply don't do it.

    The times I've been to the range, I've NEVER handled someone else's gun without their express approval first. It just ain't right or proper to do otherwise. If I have to leave my firearm on the table in the range, I make sure it's empty / safe and the magazines are ejected. If you are going to do something bad with *MY* gun, I want the video proof to clearly show you loaded the weapon prior to using it.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Part of the problem for me at least is that I was raised by my grandparents. So my morals, ethics, and sense of propiety come from one generation older than most of my peers. My grandparents saw fit to ensure I was taught how they were taught.

    At the time growing up, I felt it was a bit old-fashioned but as an adult, I understand where they were coming from and have done my best to ensure my children are raised as closely in the same manner as I was.

    Unfortunately, that lead to the occasional clash with more 'modern & cosmopolitan' folks. But hey, what I can I say? I'm a backwoods country hick that grew up amongst corn-fields.

    But being raised like this, each person's property was their own. You simply did NOT touch / use / enter without express permission beforehand. Firearms especially. Now if you were out at a range with other folks, the rules of that 'range meet' typically involved everyone sharing their guns with each other. If you didn't want to, then you didn't bring that firearm.

    But to pick up someone's firearm, at a party, and THEN monkey around with it?!? Had that been my house, the person who did so would be removed from the premises. Then again, I wouldn't have left my firearm out on a table like that.

    Regardless, it's a bad situation all around. The police officer will have to live with the fact that he left the sidearm out where someone who was untrained could get ahold of it. The person who accidentally shot & killed someone will have to live with that result.

    As for the trial, I don't see them getting anything more than neglient homocide. It's not like he had intent to kill the guy (from the article).

    There is no winner here. Only losers.

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    I would NEVER leave my gun out where it is easily seen.

    It is NOT A TOY and I do not want people shooting me with my own gun.

    The only time I may lay it down and turn my back is when it is unloaded. Then I still need to trust those around me.

    What kills me is that people think this cop is held to some other standard than the rest of us citizens because he has a freaking badge. Sure, it is shocking to see a cop allow his gun to be picked up in this manner.

    But that cop is no different than any of usand should have known better. It is somehow OK if WE do it and we are not to blame for what another stupid adult does. But we are quick to point fingers when a cop does something.

    Last time I checked a cop was a citizen, right?

    But that is what he gets for trusting the adults in that room. He is a greenhorn that has not yet learned that many Citizens are complete morons and cannot be trusted!

    NEVER LEAVE A LOADED GUN OUT IN VIEW!!

    Some dumb ass monkey is going to think it is a banana and pick it up and play with it.

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    (I'm feeling cranky this evening.)



    NOPE.

    If police:


    • are the darlings of the government and the gun-grabbers
    • and can do no wrong (unlessirrefutable video is available)
    • and are so much better trained than citizens,
    • and citizensare so generally untrustworthy with firearms,
    And citizens can be vilified in the press for:

    • other people even seeing their gun (OCers)
    • not securing their firearm against unauthorized access,
    And gun companies can be forced to come up with on-board locking devices. Or sell their guns with locks and cables.

    Then, fair is fair:

    THE GODDAM COP CAUSED THE PROBLEM!!!


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    (I'm feeling cranky this evening.)



    NOPE.

    If police:


    • are the darlings of the government and the gun-grabbers
    • and can do no wrong (unlessirrefutable video is available)
    • and are so much better trained than citizens,
    • and citizensare so generally untrustworthy with firearms,
    And citizens can be vilified in the press for:

    • other people even seeing their gun (OCers)
    • not securing their firearm against unauthorized access,
    And gun companies can be forced to come up with on-board locking devices. Or sell their guns with locks and cables.

    Then, fair is fair:

    THE GODDAM COP CAUSED THE PROBLEM!!!

    You can be aballoon knot if you like.

    Clearly this citizen could not be trusted with a firearm. He proved that to us all. The cop did not shoot anyone that night. The Citizen did!

    The Citizen picking up the gun and shooting the guy is responsible for the death.

    We adults are supposed to be smart enough to not do that. We have laws here in Virginia making it illegal to allow access to kids because they do not know better.

    So legally, that cop was fine. I guess we need laws that require us to prevent adults from getting access to guns too, huh?

    Clearly, we have one "Citizen" that was an idiot.Without permission, he picked up a gun he did not own andwas not familiar with.

    But he is better trained with firearms than the cop. Clearly.

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    This is a serious tragedy.

    There was no malice here on anyone's part. Punishing anyone with prison time isn't nearly going to equal the punishment that any party has already placed on themselves.

    I hope the law uses some common sense and lets these people go. There are no "dangers to society" here. There are just some unfortunate souls who will have to live with this tragedy every single day for the rest of their lives. I'm confident nothing like this will ever happen again in any of their personal circles.

    This is just way sad. Prayers sent for them all.



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