Open Letter From a Cop

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grumpycoconut wrote:

-Unfortunately, some of us are just dicks. The percentage of dicks in uniform is probably about the same as dicks out of uniform. The big difference is that the uniformed dick is harder to forget.

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Yes Sir, that pretty much sums it up! In every profession, and in every walk of life, there are @$$holes. That's life.

In your profession however, you are held to a higher standard in the public eye, so when one of your brethern screws the pooch big time - it has a more damaging effect.

I'm generally very pro LE, but not afraid to call BS when I see it. That really seems to confuse some people. :lol:

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grumpycoconut, Thanks for your post and welcome to OCDO.

It's easy to take stories of corrupt, dick-ish, or otherwise bad cops and infer that most cops are jerks, just as people take all the reports of people getting shot by thugs and believe anyone with a gun is a threat and can't be trusted.

People need to stop transferring the news they learn onto the group at large. Just as we need for people to understand that the overwhelming majority of people out there are GOOD, so are the overwhelming majority of LEOs.

The fear and discomfort we OCersfeel when initially approached by a LEO is probably exactly the same as someone who's never seen anyone OCing before suddenly sees a holstered firearm on an ordinary guy. We don't know what they're going to do! Are we in danger? What if he pulls his gun on me? etc. etc. If there's no problem, and everything goes smoothly, everyone takes it as a positive encounter and is likely going to be more relaxed the next time.

...Orygunner...

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grumpycoconut wrote:

Canadian,

So I answer: Yes

When called, I defend the peace. Sometimes with violence.

When needed, I enforce the law. Most often, peacefully.

In both cases I try to temper my actions with logic, morality, ethics, justice, need, education, etc, etc. Am I perfect? No. Are all cops perfect? No. Are there any humans who are perfect? No. Do we chuck the baby with the bath water because we don't like the dirt in the water? No.DoI want a perfect system? No. Imperfection and our response to it make us who we are.Are every day and every bump in the road and every asshat cop we come across an opportunity to renegotiate a better social contract? I say yes.

As for your picture. The 5th JBT from the left looks a little sketchy to me:lol:

Your turn now. Tell me which one of the folks pictured below is a dick.

Now I'm going to insert my tinfoil cup in my nomex speedo.

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You are being evasive.

As distasteful as I find it to reduce the entire issue to a simple dichotomy, there really are only 2 choices on the menu. If you are unwilling to stand with the citizens against corrupt governments and the corrupt enforcers of the law who protect them, or you are as guilty as they are.

Remember:

-The people did not take you to war in 2 seperate countries

-The people did not bankrupt the entire country, possibly the world

-The people did not draft most of the legislation that now governs you

-The people did not send all of your jobs to China

If the people are guilty of anything, it's the crime of apathy. Whereas the politicians' and their corporate masters' crimes are innumerable and unpunished.

The motto says "To protect and serve". Protect and serve whom?

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1. I'll respect LE when the Blue Wall of Silence crumbles.Thewall is mortared with a falseloyaltyto each other, rather thanthe correctloyalty--to the citizens. Elitism is the sand in that mortar.

2. Remember guys, a "good" cop enforces thelaws. Your "good" fed has been enforcing the NFA since the '30s, enforcing the GCA since the 60's, and enforcing income taxes, social security, asset forfeitures, and so on.Those were"good' cops seizing gunsin New Orleans during Katrina. Those are "good" copsthreatening tostrictly enforce Washington DC's, Chicago's, andNew York City's draconian gun laws.

And, declaring his pure-as-snow faithful enforcement of those laws, we too often see the responsibility-dodging words, "If you don't like a law, vote out the legislators," the author knowing full well that the people are more or less impotent in the matter. Too bad those authors seem to have forgottenabout tyrrany by the majority.

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Canadian,

Please explain my evasiveness. You asked a question. I answered it. I even went the extra mile to find a nice picture to complement yours. Your comment about corrupt governments also confuses me. Your underlying assumptionseems to bethat US governments that make laws are inherently corrupt because they have written laws that you don't agree with. You also seem to believe that "government" is an external entity imposed on you by some oppressor. My memory of civics class tells me that, although we don't have a direct democracy we have settled on a representative democracy as a good enough for now means of formalizing our societal interactions.

Citizen,

How about you. Please explain to me what it is you want.Do you expect inhuman perfection of behavior and thoughtfrom every person who isactually willing to step forward to take a hand in helping keep the tribe running smoothly? Should anyone who steps forward immediately be rejected because the only reason they must be willing to do it is to sieze power and enrich themselves some way? If you step forward can you do everything right every time? Are you even willing to give it a real life shot or have you decided that all is irevocably lost andyourbest remaining option is towhet your rhetorical sword on the stone of the interweb.

I guess, conditions being what they are,you guys are leftonly a few options. You could sell out your principals, become a cop and influence your community at the ground level one contact at a time, or you could seize the reigns of power by becoming politically active, potentially influencing the whole of your community, or you could take advantage of the depressed housing marketto buy a compound somewhere far away fromcorrupt government, the evil elitistmonied over lordsand their running dog lacky JBTs.

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I quite enjoyed your opening post grumpycoconut.

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grumpycoconut wrote:

SNIP Citizen,...

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Nice metaphor about whetting a sword. Gotta admire that one. Especially when it uses whet,a word rarely used in that sense, correctly.

Not sure how you skipped from what I said to what you said.

You're barking up the wrong tree to attempt the "we're imperfectly human" argument with me. I have first-hand dealings with the Blue Wall of Silence. On more than one occasion.

I can go on for a bit without getting into generalized cop-bashing, and without demanding inhuman perfection. What say I just hit one or two more points.

Cops whoexceed their authority. We know there are a fair number of these people. Not because we run into them as OCers,but because of something far more damning--good cops saying, right here on this forum, thatcops can't know all the laws. This sort of nonsense apology was offered a number of times. I finally shut it down by repeatedly pointing out something. If a cop doesn't know that OC is illegal, what in the nine hells is he using for authority to Terry stop an OCer? It can't possibly be that the cop is mistaken about the law. There is no law against it to be mistaken about in all but 6 states. So, what were they using for authority? Certainly nothing in statutory or case law. Sorry. No apologies accepted. If he didn't know cold that he had authority for the stop, he had no business making anything other than a consensual contact. Sorry. We have too many examples of cops "making it up as they go along." But, again, and just to be clear, its not the cop who illegally Terry stopped an OCer that tells the tale. Its the good cops who have come on this forum and tried to explain or justify it by claiming cops can't know all the laws.

Also, I am quite certain that the illegal Terry stops we've had reported were not the first 4th Amendment violation for the officer involved. I very much doubt the officer picked the OCer and said to himself, "Well now, for the first time in my career I am going to violate the 4th Amendment. And I will never do it again." And, I'm betting there are plenty of pals who look the other way.

ElitismI said, and elitism I meant. A recent copy of one of the gun magazines, say within the last two months, had a guest editorial by an LEO. Even though he kept it more or less on an even keel, the elitism showed through the cracks. "They may complain about us, but theysure need us", or some such. AsI recall the sheepdog-sheepmetaphor was included.

From what I can tell of police attitudes, one ofLE's human failings is that some of them seem totakeLE's own propoganda a little too literally.Can't tell the difference between their own sales pitch andfacts."Without us there would be anarchy."Even your own words, "Step forward and...keeping the tribe running smoothly." Somehow, LE seems to overlook that civilization went well at the local level for centuries before police departments started formingin the 1840's.Just a few constables,if that.Why, society would fall apart or the sheep would be slaughtered by the wolves if it weren't for the heroesmaking upThe Thin Blue Line, if the sales pitch were to be believed.

If police want my respect, it would be simpleto obtain.

Become familiar with the principles in the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights and use them.

Adopt and apply the idea that the LEO only has the precise authority he has been given and not one millimeter more.

Stop treating rights as something to get around. Or something that gets in the way. Stop looking for creative ways to get around them.

Stop lying to people--we have far too many reportsof police giving false information aboutthe legality of OC. Random, hit or miss phone calls to police get a false answer? I could see it if 20 OCers all called the same cop, but when they all callor ask different cops at random, and get false answers,to believe thatnone of those cops was making it uptodiscourageOCjust to avoid 911 calls, or out of a bias against armed citizens puts a strain on my credulity it is quite unable to withstand. Does anyone really believe that the only lies told have to do only with OC?

Rights arevital to society;this includesthe same society the officer lives in andclaims he is trying to protect. Rights are not balanced against security. This is a lie. Rights are security. Security and rights are the same thing. The Framers, those whoargued for the Bill of Rights anyway, recognized this. They recognized government can cause far more damage than criminals. How else would this apply at its most basic level, where else would rubber meet the road, than for an LEO torespect religiously the rights of the suspect at the time he is "suspecting" him? If not then, when? Where?

Full circle back to the Blue Wall of Silence. Some of what I've discussed above could not possibly exist for more than about two seconds without the Blue Wall of Silence.

Also, the BWS necessarily includes that enough officers agree that the wrongs are OK. Or not that important. No big deal.

And, how can a participant in the BWS claim hedeeply respects the rights of suspects?Even if hedoesn't violatea suspect's rights himself,not even a little bit,his respects stops right at that exact point he fails or refuses to report another officer's violation, doesn't it?

False loyalty. Elitism. Blue Wallof Silence.

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grumpycoconut wrote:

Canadian,

Please explain my evasiveness. You asked a question. I answered it.

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No, you didn't. You responded with a bunch of scripted doublespeakthat carefully skirts the question. So I'll ask it again, in a slightly different way. Are you this guy:



Or this guy:



Do you even see the difference?


grumpycoconut wrote:

You also seem to believe that "government" is an external entity imposed on you by some oppressor. My memory of civics class tells me that, although we don't have a direct democracy we have settled on a representative democracy as a good enough for now means of formalizing our societal interactions.

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Your memory of civics class is (at best) the difference between theory and practice. The real world doesn't work the way your teachers told you it does.

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Citizen,

Yours takes more reading and thinking about so I will answer Canadian first in order to give your words the time and thought they deserve.

Canadian,

Get ready for more scripted double speak. The answer to your question is I have at times beenboth.I have helped little old ladies cross the street, have smiled and given stickers to little kids, have played basketball with teens in the park, have listened for long minutes as the homeless schizophrenictalked endlessly about the gods only know whatand made apot head's day when I dumped his bit of weed in the gutter rather than write him a chicken shit ticket. I have also smashed in doors and windows so that my partners could point big black guns at drug dealers, thievesand murderers, have put my knee on the back of the necks of fighters, runners, wife beaters, out of control drunks and folks who just plain needed to be stopped from doing what they were doing and have hit violent people just as hard as I was able so that I didn't have to hit them again. I have ridden bikes through the neighborhood and smiled and have strapped on the full battle rattle and worn my war face.I have helped chase 200 angry bottle throwing drunks out of a bar parking lot using big sticks and well placed kicks so that the paramedics could get to the perforated guy bleeding outon the ground. I have hugged scared little kids while wearing my battle rattle and helped them feel a little safer.

Most of the cops I have ever worked with have hard and soft in them. Two of the most physically dangerous men I have ever met are also two of the kindest and gentlest men I have ever met. Good cops have and need both sides. If you can't or won't accept that then there is nothing I or any other traveler on the information super goat path can do tosatisfy you.

So how abouttheory and practice. Theory is where you want to be. Practice is how you get there. Refusal to engage because one believes that there is no hope for a better result is intelectually dishonest, morally bankrupt and just plain dickish. Fish or cut bait. No one is forcing you to be here. People get the government they deserve.Read that last sentence anyway you want.

On a lighter and more literalnote, I look ok in shorts but spandex is not my friend. I'm no double chin sporting tub of guts but I'm over 40 and love my food so my heavy armor does have a bit of a slope to it.

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Citizen,

Thanks for the kind word on the whetstone metaphor. I kind of surprised me when that one popped out.

As for your points, lets see if I pick them out correctly.

1. Cops exceeding their authority and zero tolerance for screw ups

2. Elitism

3. Integrity and the Conspiracy of Silence

Did I get 'em right?

-1. If a cop exceeds his authority you have every right, screw rights, you have a duty to call him on the carpet for it. There are mechanisms in place for you to do so. Is it hard, ugly, slow and frustrating? Yup, you betcha. Is it always gonna work the way you want it to? Nope. Do cops who screw up get the dog snot slapped out of them? Yup. Does it happen every time? Nope. 42USC1983 and a veritable butt load of other laws were written for just such occasions. If you want perfect performance, encyclopedic legal knowledge and Solomon like wisdom you're likly to be disappointed. The way I see it you can choose to be punitive or you can choose to be supportive or best of all you can choose a mix of both. Have you ever offered to give a training presentation on the legality of open carry to your local PD. How about giving your local patrol cop a few copies of one of the brochures that are floating around on this site. By the mere fact that you are here I am certain that you have at least some degree of knowledge on this specific topic that is greater that that possessed by many of your local cops. You have no idea how many friendly warnings are ignored aftermost new laws are enacted before the ticketsstart getting handed out. Share your knowledge, then if the lesson don't stick go for a dog snot slap.

-2. Are cops elitist? Damn skippy they are.I recently talked to an LAPD captain who told me that theyweed through 10,000 candidatesa yearin order to hire 500 potential cops who may or may not pass the academy, training or probation. Are cops proud of their positions? Again I say Damn Skipppy. Do some cops let this go to thier heads? Oh Yeah. The good ones grow out of it as their rough edges are polished with use. How about the ones who don't grow out of it? I say try to teach 'em first, then go for the dog snot slap. But try for the teaching part first. Of course its a lot more fun to quote Captain Bryant, the great police philosopher from the year 2019, "If you're not cop, you're little people."

-3. I offer no excuses for the code of silence. Any offer of an explanation I may makeis likely to do little more than draw fire hot enough to burn through my nomex speedo and tin foil cup. So what to do? How about education, how about good leadership, how about thoughtful and reasoned citizen involvement, how about good pay, how about good equipment, how about good training, how about agood retirement, how about praising good behavior with as much entusiasm as is expended in denouncing bad behavior, how about how many how abouts you can come up with that encourage you do right.

You mention civilization bopping along quite happily before the advent of modern police. There I must vehemently disagree. All things considered,us moderns havegot it pretty good. In 1840 god help you if you were black, poor, a woman or Irish. That good constable was much quicker to take a truncheon to your head that any modern copper. For that matter I'd much rather face the most out of control modern cop than hear Wyatt Earp ask me if I was intent of skinin' my smoke wagon.

Every group of simians has a pecking order and it's always been up to the biggest, baddest, smartest, meanest or sneakiestsimian to set the tone for his tribe. Some times you get lucky and the top ape is fair and reasonable. Some times you get your ear bitten of just because the top ape didn't get any last night. If things get bad enough and you have the means you can either walk away or bash in the boss ape's head and take his place at the table. If you don't have the means you get to just take it. Little tribes can get along ok with out formally recognizedleaders and peace keepersmost of the time until they get too big or run into the troop on the other side of the hill. Hobbes said it pretty painfully wellwhen he described the life of man in his natural state. "nasty, brutish and short"is good shorthand for a rich paragraph that, to me, illustrates the consequences of failing to incorporate the individual into a formalized, ritualized structure greater than himself. Our tribes have been too big for too long to have any realistic hope of changing back to a simpler, happier state or leaping forward suddenlyto a more enlightened, mature andlibertatian state. I'm not saying that I'm not trying but I will admit that I'm not gonna hold my breath till it happens.

Utopia (not place) and Eutopia (good place) are nice goals but our monkey DNA still encourages us to fling the occasional poo and last I heard both Utopia and Eutopia had pretty restrictive CCRs.

Citizen, Thanks for the opportunity to sharpen my own metaphorical, rhetorical sword.

Ken

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grumpycoconut wrote:

Canadian,

Please explain my evasiveness. You asked a question. I answered it. I even went the extra mile to find a nice picture to complement yours. Your comment about corrupt governments also confuses me. Your underlying assumptionseems to bethat US governments that make laws are inherently corrupt because they have written laws that you don't agree with. You also seem to believe that "government" is an external entity imposed on you by some oppressor. My memory of civics class tells me that, although we don't have a direct democracy we have settled on a representative democracy as a good enough for now means of formalizing our societal interactions.

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Now I really like you. No one here gets that!

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Oh no. AWDStylez likes grumpycoconut.

There's the kiss of death if I've ever seen it

...Now I'll have to like grumpycoconut to even things out and give him a chance of survival... :celebrate
...Orygunner...


Edited to correct spelling

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Orygunner wrote:

Oh no. AWDStylez likes grumpycoconut.

There's the kiss of death if I've ever seen it

...Now I'll have to like grumpycoconut to even things out and give him a chance of survival... :celebrate
...Orygunner...


Edited to correct spelling

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It's too late. He's doomed. He'sa cop AND I like him. Not only did I think that would never happen, but it would most certainly spell disaster for even the best people.

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AWDStylez, just don't do me any favors, OK?

I may not be a cop, but I fear the stigma of your appreciation anyway...

...Can I call you a name or something? what would it take to ensure your scorn? ...
...Orygunner...

P.S. Sorry to the OP for getting off topic... part of the reason we're all here is to have fun, right?

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Orygunner wrote:

P.S. Sorry to the OP for getting off topic... part of the reason we're all here is to have fun, right?

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Wrong. Humor is neither open carry, nor gun related, thus is off-topic and not allowed. Honestly, I think if we could all bs a little more and talk about non-heated topics like life and the weather, we'd all be a lot more friendly. But, alas, it's not my board so we work with what we're given.

Now I'm getting off-topic talking about going off-topic so you're free to call me names, berate me for ruining the thread, anddemand citations. That will keep you from falling out of favor with everyone else.

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Now I'm worried.

Does AWDStylez's like spell real doom for me or just internet forum doom? Do I need to up my insurance or what? Will it help save me if I write a j-walking or dog license ticket? Will it really help me if I denounce him for an off topic thread hijacker who's off topicness is an affront to all things opencarry?

Help!?

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grumpycoconut wrote:

Will it really help me if I denounce him for an off topic thread hijacker who's off topicness is an affront to all things opencarry?

Help!?

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Yea, I'd recommend that route if you want to E-survive on this intranetz webbcite. If you don't, you'll be labeled a liberal, socialist, communist, naziObama lover that hates all things gun and isimmature and indoctrinated by the mass conspiratorycollege system.

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AWDstylez wrote:

grumpycoconut wrote:

Canadian,

Please explain my evasiveness. You asked a question. I answered it. I even went the extra mile to find a nice picture to complement yours. Your comment about corrupt governments also confuses me. Your underlying assumption seems to be that US governments that make laws are inherently corrupt because they have written laws that you don't agree with. You also seem to believe that "government" is an external entity imposed on you by some oppressor. My memory of civics class tells me that, although we don't have a direct democracy we have settled on a representative democracy as a good enough for now means of formalizing our societal interactions.

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Now I really like you. No one here gets that!

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I love this. Please explain how government is not an external authority imposed upon myself. Please explain what "social contract" I've signed (Hobbes, take a hike). Please explain in what ways government is responsive to me, the "smallest minority", the individual. Please explain what power I have to live my life the way I would while government forbids it.

Please, justify this theory outside of mere philosophy. Please, reify this notion in concrete terms for me.

As it is, I reject this premise as unfit for anything but public school history books. Reality certainly does not bear out "government by the people" arguments.

Apathy may be an allowing factor, but it is otherwise absurd to place responsibility on the heads of a disenfranchised populace.

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grumpycoconut wrote:

Every group of simians has a pecking order and it's always been up to the biggest, baddest, smartest, meanest or sneakiest simian to set the tone for his tribe. Some times you get lucky and the top ape is fair and reasonable. Some times you get your ear bitten of just because the top ape didn't get any last night.  If things get bad enough and you have the means you can either walk away or bash in the boss ape's head and take his place at the table.  If you don't have the means you get to just take it.  Little tribes can get along ok with out formally recognized leaders and peace keepers most of the time until they get too big or run into the troop on the other side of the hill. Hobbes said it pretty painfully well when he described the life of man in his natural state. "nasty, brutish and short" is good shorthand for a rich paragraph that, to me, illustrates the consequences of failing to incorporate the individual into a formalized, ritualized structure greater than himself.  Our tribes have been too big for too long to have any realistic hope of changing back to a simpler, happier state or leaping forward suddenly to a more enlightened, mature and libertatian state. I'm not saying that I'm not trying but I will admit that I'm not gonna hold my breath till it happens.

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You read far too much Hobbes. Did you know the man actually believed that people were "asocial" and "apolitical" in "state of nature"?

What ridiculous tripe.

At least AWDstylez believes that the recourse to government is a function of human nature, not a denial of it.

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Cool ADWstylz. You are a liberal, socialist, communist, naziObama lover that hates all things gun and isimmature and indoctrinated by the mass conspiratorycollege system too? Can I support gay marriage, flag burning, a path to citizenship, and drug legalizationalso?

(fist raised in the air in fanatic fervor) Dyslexic workers of the world untie!!!!!