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Thread: Aurora OC - First timer?

  1. #1
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    Just moved to Aurora and I'm working up the cojones to OC.

    I'm somewhat discouraged by what I'm reading about APD's unwritten suppression of OC.

    What, specifically should I do in the likely event that I'm contacted by APD regarding this? Should I invest in a audio/video recorder first?

    Anyone OCd King Soopers @ Mississippi & Chambers? I know they have armed security there.

    Can someone put up a sticky for us first timers?
    A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week. --Gen. George S. Patton

    Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms. - Robert Heinlein

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    A sticky would be a good idea, but it's really all about your surroundings, comfort level and knowledge of the law. Before I'd go out I've have an intimate knowledge of the laws in Flyer22's post here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum13/17649.html

    From personal experience I would absolutely carry a voice recorder.

    If you are contacted by LEOs stay calm and polite but assertive.

    If they ask you for ID, politely tell them that unless they have a "reasonable suspicion" that you have/are about to commit a crime, you aren't required to give them anything.

  3. #3
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    Also, I'm kind of curious what the goal is to be, shall we say, less than compliant with PD when approached? I was reading the thread http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum13/21311.html posted yesterday.

    I understand that a goal is to not have OC compromised. Ex: Putting the gun away when told/asked. But I am less clear on why you would not provide ID when asked.
    A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week. --Gen. George S. Patton

    Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms. - Robert Heinlein

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    xpingjockey wrote:
    Also, I'm kind of curious what the goal is to be, shall we say, less than compliant with PD when approached? I was reading the thread http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum13/21311.html posted yesterday.

    I understand that a goal is to not have OC compromised. Ex: Putting the gun away when told/asked. But I am less clear on why you would not provide ID when asked.
    The same reason that you wouldn't want the police to demand your ID for walking down the street, or wearing your favorite shirt. This isn't "Your papers please" Nazi Germany. You have a right to be left alone unless there is evidence that you have done something wrong. For me, I want to be able to go about my business without being hassled by the police. If you want to volunteer your government papers, that's your choice.

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    Fair enough. I hadn't really thought of it that way.
    A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week. --Gen. George S. Patton

    Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms. - Robert Heinlein

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    I wish you good luck on your first OC trip. I hope you'll share it with us on OCDO.

  7. #7
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    I live in Aurora and almost all of my OC experience is there. Generally, I dont have problems even with the police. Yeah on occasion you might encounter an officer who gives you the standard "you shouldnt OC" line, but that is the extent to which I have had problems with APD. Always carry a voice recorder. In terms of businesses, most of the time people either dont notice or dont care. I OC in King Soopers (though I have only carried once in the one at Mississippi and Chambers) and have never had a problem. Basically the only problems I’ve encountered are with specific anti-OC employees because very few of the businesses have anti-OC policies.

    It may also be helpful to note and some areas of Aurora are friendlier to OC than others. I wouldn’t OC in Old Aurora (basically north of Colfax) for instance.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    I agree with Entartet17. I've had one "man with a gun" call where I had to talk face to face the APD. I've also been, um, I guess the best way to put it is "stalked" by APD officers while shopping. I live near Hampden and Tower and OC'd in just about every business on that intersection except the King Soopers.

    I've also OC'd at the Subway on Tower (Resevoir Road) and Quincy. A lot of cops hang out there and eat lunch/dinner, but for some reason they've never been in when I was OC'ing there.

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    If you're still interested but hesitant, why not meet someone here for coffee as your first OC experience? The buddy-system, ya know? Let me know if you want to meet up.

    First post, by the way. Greetings all.

    -Daniel

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    I'd like to get some of this action if you guys get together.

    I just found this place through an XDTalk thread. Very informative so far.

    Some of us car guys get together at the Sonic at Tower & Hampden on Friday nights throughout the summer. There's an APD sergeant that usually shows up. I may ask him for a few of his business cards and get his take on the OC issue.

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    I talked with the sergeant from Aurora PD tonight. He stated that Aurora can, and does, enforce laws stricter than the Co. State laws concerning OC; something about a "Home Rule Jurisdiction." He said they still use the old statutes that precede current Co. law, and disregard the current State law on OC. He also implied a person OCing can have his weapon confiscated on the spot, and you'd likely be charged with "Displaying a weapon in a threatening manner" even if it was holstered because someone felt threatened enough to call the police. And said weapon would be forfeited if the defendant lost in court.

    He also said you'd be a fool to OC in Aurora. So I guess the moral of the story is to not OC a gun you can't afford to lose.

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    I talked with the sergeant from Aurora PD tonight. He stated that Aurora can, and does, enforce laws stricter than the Co. State laws concerning OC; something about a "Home Rule Jurisdiction." He said they still use the old statutes that precede current
    The sergeant was mistaken. I've OC'd in Aurora and been called for "man with a gun". It wasn't pleasant, but I wasn't arrested nor did I have my handgun confiscated. Not to bash, but there are some prima donna LE's in the Aurora PD, and there are some pretty cool officers as well. However, I've been told that by OC'ing I can expect a lot more encounters. For some reason it's not as much as I've expected or they made it out to be.

    OC home rule denial is only valid in Denver per the Meyer decision (or via posting signs). There is no Aurora law on "displaying a weapon in a threating manner", there is a state law against brandishing. A holstered weapon is not brandishing. If you can PM me the sergeant's name I'd like to give him a call. If he repeats his position I'd like to send a letter to the chief. If any Aurora PD were to arrest someone for legally OC'ing the PD is ripe for a lawsuit.

    He also said you'd be a fool to OC in Aurora.
    Why? Why wouldn't he say it's a crime to OC in Aurora? That's just gestapo type bullying tactics.




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    Dom,

    I'm not going to see the sergeant until next Friday weather permitting. He's probably not going to give out his number over this issue. Instead why not stop by the Sonic on Tower and Hampden, then you can talk to him FTF just in case I misconstrued what he said. Don't forget to OC your weapon, too.

    The Chief of Police is the one dictating these "enhanced" policies, so I really doubt a letter is going to accomplish anything other than getting the citing officer a pat on the back.

    I probably should have chosen my words more carefully. I didn't mean to suggest one would be arrested for OC. I'm assuming in the case of brandishing - subject to interpretation - one would be merely ticketed.

    I think the point he was trying to make is that the OC has more to lose than the police. I don't like Gestapo tactics either because I'm the type to "push the buttons."

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    64Postcar wrote:
    I talked with the sergeant from Aurora PD tonight. He stated that Aurora can, and does, enforce laws stricter than the Co. State laws concerning OC; something about a "Home Rule Jurisdiction." He said they still use the old statutes that precede current Co. law, and disregard the current State law on OC. He also implied a person OCing can have his weapon confiscated on the spot, and you'd likely be charged with "Displaying a weapon in a threatening manner" even if it was holstered because someone felt threatened enough to call the police. And said weapon would be forfeited if the defendant lost in court.

    He also said you'd be a fool to OC in Aurora. So I guess the moral of the story is to not OC a gun you can't afford to lose.
    That sergeant is very much mistaken. I OC in Aurora all the time and have had several encounters with APD and nothing has ever happened as a result. It was basically just them discouraging OC, but they certainly never went beyond that. Plus, Aurora no longer has the more restrictive OC laws in their municiple code so there is no way they could prosecute somone with them.

    The actual Aurora law on displaying a weapon reads: "It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly, recklessly, or negligently display, flourish, or brandish any illegal or dangerous weapon, including but not limited to those enunciated in subsection (a) of this section, in such manner as to reasonably cause fear of bodily injury to another person." Simply carrying a holstered firearm does not suffice.

    Like Dom pointed out, only Denver can ban OC because of the Meyer decision. I'm sure this sergent was following the standard APD line of discouraging OC even if he had to resort to lying about the gun laws.

    On a side note, I was in Firing Line today (despite my dislike for their anti-OC stance, but I only needed some lubricant) and I saw the mayor of Aurora Ed Tauer in there looking for a new gun to buy. I've talked with him before and he is pretty pro-gun so he might be interested in what APD is telling the public...
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    "The actual Aurora law on displaying a weapon reads: "It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly, recklessly, or negligently display, flourish, or brandish any illegal or dangerous weapon, including but not limited to those enunciated in subsection (a) of this section, in such manner as to reasonably cause fear of bodily injury to another person." Simply carrying a holstered firearm does not suffice."

    I see a lot of ambiguity in that law, specifically the language "display" and "reasonably cause fear". Who makes the determination of what's reasonable? APD.

    For me I can see contact with APD being a one-sided affair, with me becoming a threat to the public because I was disobeying lawful orders to provide ID, discussing/quoting the law, or asking questions. The end result for me would be jail time, loss of weapon, loss of the right to buy guns and a bunch of legal bills. That's how my world spins...

    I'm not a fan of The Firing Line either.

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    It is nothing new for some voices in the criminal justice system in Colorado to "lie" about CO firearms laws. Colorado has one of the finest State constitutions in the nation protecting the right to keep and bear arms for self defensepurposes.

    I'm not in the mood to take this thread down another often traveled path- so I'll leave it at that. I incourage Coloradan's to really READ & study the CO Constitution. It is the "gold standard" for Colorado law, and civil rights. The right to be free from unreasonable search & seizure, and the right tobe armed in defense of one's person is solidly affirmed and protected in Colorado, much stronger than U.S. Constitution.

    Solicitations, opinions, assertions by people in the CJS are just that - their opinion. Thanks to the internet the days of pulling the "legal" wool over the eyes of the citizenryare over.The days when those "privileged" to wear a badge could consign all others to be defenseless victims when venturing out in public are also over.

    It's time for LEO's to actually study the State law they are commissioned to enforce- not just memorize the tactics taught in the academies designed to circumvent constitutionally guaranteed rights. "State law" by definition includes the respective State constitutions - especially the provisions of the State"bill of rights". It is not required that LEO's "like" the State law in order to respect it and abide by it.

    P.S. - On the " causing alarm" subject ...when another person approaches the OC'er to make confrontational contact- that person may very well experience some initial "alarm" upon discoveringthat he/she has confronted an armed citizen.

    ["OOOOOPS!... Oh my gosh !... Maybe I should back off......uuh.. have a nice day."]


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    Point taken regarding the oft beaten path. I'm sure this issue has been beaten to death here.

    " P.S. - On the " causing alarm" subject ... when another person approaches the OC'er to make confrontational contact - that person may very well experience some initial "alarm" upon discovering that he/she has confronted an armed citizen."

    If the scenario goes down like you say, then I agree.

    But, let's say a customer goes to the manager and says there's a man with a gun in aisle 3. The manager immediately calls the police, but states that a man is waving a gun in the store. This is the classic example of the children's game, "Whisper down the lane." When the police show up, the original complainant is long gone. Anybody that can see 3 or 4 steps ahead can see where this incident is going regardless if OC is legal.

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    64Postcar wrote:

    But, let's say a customer goes to the manager and says there's a man with a gun in aisle 3. The manager immediately calls the police, but states that a man is waving a gun in the store. This is the classic example of the children's game, "Whisper down the lane." When the police show up, the original complainant is long gone. Anybody that can see 3 or 4 steps ahead can see where this incident is going regardless if OC is legal.
    RULE # 1 - Never, ever initiate confrontation when I OC. When I OC - I am the most polite person you will ever encounter.


    This is where HOW I PRESENT MYSELF in public plays a CRITICAL ROLEin any scenario. Given contemporary attitudes, years of social conditioning, and the potential for an "anti" personality being on the scene- one must know the legal parameters, be prepared for an LEO encounter and use the opportunity to promote increasedacceptance of OC.

    I do not OC 24/7. I don't OC everywhere - even if legal. I guage every situation - and thus far no problems. I don't push my luck my "hanging around", or engaging in prolonged visits to stores. I enter. Igather my purchase and "proceed to check out" in a friendly, and deliberate fashion.

    I usually engage in a friendly reassuring manner with clerks when greeted , conduct myself matter -a-factly, and act like the holstered firearm isn't there. Most people I interact with don't "seem" to notice that I'm armed - at least they are not alarmed or made uncomfortable. If I am not "comfortable" in my OC condition - how can I expect others to be . That -to me - is the challenge before us who choose to OC.

    I'm not out to have an incident or LEO encounter. OC is legal. I want to project the image of someone involved in lawful behavior. I believe I do just that. If I'm contacted by LEO's I will respond respectfully -expecting the same in return.

    Change in attitudes is never brought about - without some opposition or uneasiness.


  19. #19
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    Excellent post Sandcreek.

    SANDCREEK wrote:
    If I am not "comfortable" in my OC condition - how can I expect others to be .
    +1

    Being comfortable and expressing a quite self confidence to the public when OCing is paramount.

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