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Thread: While I was in Colonial Heights......

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    I stopped by Dance's Sporting Goods in Colonial Heights today. They had a really cool Para Long Slide 1911 I was checking out when I heard one of the salesman tell some prospective gun buyers that open carry was illegal in the City of Richmond and in Alexandria.

    This guy said he was an instructor and he was in the know. I told him about preemption. I am officially a 2nd amendment activist snob. I hear the stupidest stuff at gun shows and gun counters.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    You would think the Bubba capital of the south would have known better. Too bad whoever gave this person their Instructor class, could not also revoke it. Perhaps that should be considered.

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    While I was going back and forth with this guy I told him that Open Carry is now legal in state parks, but not in National Parks. I told them that you can conceal carry in National Parks.

    Everyone at the store looked at me like I had two heads.They had no idea. I think my fervant manner took them by surprise. My threshold limit value for the steady stream of ******** I hear from know-it-alls at gun counters had been exceeded.

    I told them about Dan and how we do not tolerate those jurisdictions that have not bought into preemtion.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    This guy said he was an instructor and he was in the know.
    I'd love to know who that was!


    eta - maybe we should invite him to the next OC dinner....


    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    This guy said he was an instructor and he was in the know.
    I'd love to know who that was!


    eta - maybe we should invite him to the next OC dinner....

    This guy "user"is probably their lawyer.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/reply.p...65&quote=1



    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    While I was going back and forth with this guy I told him that Open Carry is now legal in state parks, but not in National Parks. I told them that you can conceal carry in National Parks.
    *I* did not know this!!! It is now legal to OC in state parks? It used to not be. And if so is it not now legal to OC in national parks in VA? I thought the new fed rules were to mirror state park rules for the state the national park is in?

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    While I was going back and forth with this guy I told him that Open Carry is now legal in state parks, but not in National Parks. I told them that you can conceal carry in National Parks.
    *I* did not know this!!! It is now legal to OC in state parks? It used to not be. And if so is it not now legal to OC in national parks in VA? I thought the new fed rules were to mirror state park rules for the state the national park is in?
    SNIP from a VCDL Mini-Alert 12/4/2008

    **********************************************
    2. ACTION ITEM: Contact Governor on open carry in State Parks
    **********************************************

    "As you know, the Attorney General opined recently that Virginia State Parks CANNOT ban or control the lawful carry of handguns, including open carry (concealed carry is already OK)."



    Seems like to me open carry in a state park is a grey area. The rule prohibiting open carry may not be legal and might not be able to be enforced.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    While I was going back and forth with this guy I told him that Open Carry is now legal in state parks, but not in National Parks. I told them that you can conceal carry in National Parks.
    *I* did not know this!!! It is now legal to OC in state parks? It used to not be. And if so is it not now legal to OC in national parks in VA? I thought the new fed rules were to mirror state park rules for the state the national park is in?
    SNIP from a VCDL Mini-Alert 12/4/2008

    **********************************************
    2. ACTION ITEM: Contact Governor on open carry in State Parks
    **********************************************

    "As you know, the Attorney General opined recently that Virginia State Parks CANNOT ban or control the lawful carry of handguns, including open carry (concealed carry is already OK)."



    Seems like to me open carry in a state park is a grey area. The rule prohibiting open carry may not be legal and might not be able to be enforced.
    I always thought that rule was crazy due to preemption. But say it is invalid, how does that affect the national park rule???

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    While I was going back and forth with this guy I told him that Open Carry is now legal in state parks, but not in National Parks. I told them that you can conceal carry in National Parks.
    *I* did not know this!!! It is now legal to OC in state parks? It used to not be. And if so is it not now legal to OC in national parks in VA? I thought the new fed rules were to mirror state park rules for the state the national park is in?
    SNIP from a VCDL Mini-Alert 12/4/2008

    **********************************************
    2. ACTION ITEM: Contact Governor on open carry in State Parks
    **********************************************

    "As you know, the Attorney General opined recently that Virginia State Parks CANNOT ban or control the lawful carry of handguns, including open carry (concealed carry is already OK)."



    Seems like to me open carry in a state park is a grey area. The rule prohibiting open carry may not be legal and might not be able to be enforced.
    I always thought that rule was crazy due to preemption. But say it is invalid, how does that affect the national park rule???

    When I typed conceal carry in National Parks, I am referring to National Parks in Virginia.

    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    While I was going back and forth with this guy I told him that Open Carry is now legal in state parks, but not in National Parks. I told them that you can conceal carry in National Parks.
    *I* did not know this!!! It is now legal to OC in state parks? It used to not be. And if so is it not now legal to OC in national parks in VA? I thought the new fed rules were to mirror state park rules for the state the national park is in?
    SNIP from a VCDL Mini-Alert 12/4/2008

    **********************************************
    2. ACTION ITEM: Contact Governor on open carry in State Parks
    **********************************************

    "As you know, the Attorney General opined recently that Virginia State Parks CANNOT ban or control the lawful carry of handguns, including open carry (concealed carry is already OK)."

    Seems like to me open carry in a state park is a grey area. The rule prohibiting open carry may not be legal and might not be able to be enforced.
    I always thought that rule was crazy due to preemption. But say it is invalid, how does that affect the national park rule???
    The National Parks rule that was just changed specifically tries to apply only to concealed carry. However, the rule is so poorly written, you are just as required to carry your gun loaded as you are to carry it concealed. At least that's how I read it, along with a few others here and there...

    Nobody is volunteering to be a test case for OC though.

    TFred

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    As you know, the Attorney General opined recently that Virginia State Parks CANNOT ban or control the lawful carry of handguns, including open carry (concealed carry is already OK).

    Seems like to me open carry in a state park is a grey area. The rule prohibiting open carry may not be legal and might not be able to be enforced.
    I don't know, it is just as apparent to me as it is that they CANNOT restrict you from carrying in any government building or other PUBLIC place.

    State parks are public land and therefor (by my understanding) owned by the PEOPLE of Virginia and subject to the same laws and provisions as any other properties of the PEOPLE.


    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    As you know, the Attorney General opined recently that Virginia State Parks CANNOT ban or control the lawful carry of handguns, including open carry (concealed carry is already OK).

    Seems like to me open carry in a state park is a grey area. The rule prohibiting open carry may not be legal and might not be able to be enforced.
    I don't know, it is just as apparent to me as it is that they CANNOT restrict you from carrying in any government building or other PUBLIC place.

    State parks are public land and therefor (by my understanding) owned by the PEOPLE of Virginia and subject to the same laws and provisions as any other properties of the PEOPLE.


    I agree with you 100%. There still is a rule in place that you can not open carry in a public park. Reading the Attorney General's Opinion I am convinced the rule is un-enforcable.

    It looks like to me that the rule will not be overturned even though itisun-enforcable. What we need is a real go-getter. Someone that is not afraid to stick theire neck out to be a test case.

    I need to get with Danbus and see if he wants to do some flounder fishing with me at the State Park in Cape Charles. Then we can get this illegal rule overturned by the courts.





    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    I'm the RO (Race Organizer) for a regatta to be held at First Landing in May. I would OC for sure... except when I'm on the committee boat!

    Though, last year I think I saw a park ranger a total of twice over a three-day weekend. The only opportunity for a confrontation would be with another patron (unlikely) or going to the park visitor center, which is also unlikely.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    State Parks have not yet changed their regulations banning open carry. I am working on this, but I don't have any info yet.


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    T Dubya wrote:
    I hear the stupidest stuff at gun shows and gun counters.
    It's practically a universal truth: anything said by anyone working a gun show table or gun store counter, is 80% BS. (The rest is outright lies.)

    Before I let my C&R FFL lapse, I was regularly amazed at the astounding level of ignorance displayed by Type 01 FFLs. On one occasion (and only one!), I had two youngish fellows at a shop (one was the manager) admit they didn't know much about C&R, but they patiently listened while I explained, and they read the regulations when I showed them my copy of the ATF regs.

    Then they agreed with what it said, and did the FFL-FFL transfer, instead of insisting on a 4473 and NICS. It was an interstate deal on a C&R handgun, so I'm glad they did. (It was such a killer deal that I'd have bought it even if I'd had to have it transferred to a Texas dealer.)



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    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    I stopped by Dance's Sporting Goods in Colonial Heights today. They had a really cool Para Long Slide 1911 I was checking out when I heard one of the salesman tell some prospective gun buyers that open carry was illegal in the City of Richmond and in Alexandria.

    This guy said he was an instructor and he was in the know. I told him about preemption. I am officially a 2nd amendment activist snob. I hear the stupidest stuff at gun shows and gun counters.
    I've been wanting to stop by Dance's to check their prices. I guess I have another reason to go now: my gun needs to go for a walk, and I would love to do a little talking to this salesman. Hopefully he's got his facts straight now, but I'm sure it would still blow his mind having an OCer in his store.


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    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    kenny wrote:
    You would think the Bubba capital of the south would have known better. Too bad whoever gave this person their Instructor class, could not also revoke it. Perhaps that should be considered.
    It might have been easier for T Dubya to simply state: 'If you want familiarity, technique and safety instruction, hire a shooting instructor. If you want to know the law, hire an attorney'.

    Sorry ProShooter, and other instructors. This seems to be a general rule, and is certainly not all encompassing.

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    I was just in there Friday buying a holster. Itsurprises me that some people don't know the rules and laws pertaining to guns especially when they make a living selling them.

    I'm sure that ForestDancewould not be happy knowing that his people are giving wrong info and advice to their customers.

    Perhaps you should write to them and let him know what happened so that he can get his people educated. They've got a nice place and I can't really say anything bad about them. They've been around for some time. They started out in Petersburg probably back in the late 70s - early 80s.

    http://www.dancessportinggoods.net/i...s/Page323.html

    570 Southpark Boulevard

    Colonial Heights, VA 23834

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    I took my CCW class there, and got the same BS from their instructor about open carry in richmond. Actually, he stated that neither open OR concealed were legal in the city of richmond. When I insisted that state preemption had overridden those regulations he basically told me that I should give it a try, but don't be surprised when I get arrested and have my guns and permit seized.

    My GF also got a rash of cr@p the other day for talking about concealed carry purses. The guy at the counter went off on a rant about how that will just get your gun stolen and instead she should not wear skimpy clothes so that she can conceal IWB like normal people do. (She dresses conservatively BTW, so he was way off base to begin with) He didn't want to hear any part of her explaination that even very modest womens clothing doesn't leave much room for adequately concealing a gun of effective caliber.

    You meet some real pieces of work behind gun store counters.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    VCDL President wrote:
    State Parks have not yet changed their regulations banning open carry. I am working on this, but I don't have any info yet.
    Open carry at Harborfest was illegal. Open carry at waterside was illegal. We saw how that worked out.

    Doesn't open carry at a state park share similarities with these cases because of preemption? The attorney general says the rule is wrong. If someone were to be arrested for open carry in a park couldn't they win in a court case?
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    T Dubya wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    State Parks have not yet changed their regulations banning open carry. I am working on this, but I don't have any info yet.
    Open carry at Harborfest was illegal. Open carry at waterside was illegal. We saw how that worked out.

    Doesn't open carry at a state park share similarities with these cases because of preemption? The attorney general says the rule is wrong. If someone were to be arrested for open carry in a park couldn't they win in a court case?
    Preemption applies to LOCALITIES, not state agencies. However, state agencies should only be able to ban guns up to the point that the General Assembly allows them to do so.

    If you want to open carry in a State Park to see if you will get off the hook, we will watch your case very closely to see how ir progresses. If not, we are working to get the regulation fixed.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    VCDL President wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    State Parks have not yet changed their regulations banning open carry. I am working on this, but I don't have any info yet.
    Open carry at Harborfest was illegal. Open carry at waterside was illegal. We saw how that worked out.

    Doesn't open carry at a state park share similarities with these cases because of preemption? The attorney general says the rule is wrong. If someone were to be arrested for open carry in a park couldn't they win in a court case?
    Preemption applies to LOCALITIES, not state agencies. However, state agencies should only be able to ban guns up to the point that the General Assembly allows them to do so.

    If you want to open carry in a State Park to see if you will get off the hook, we will watch your case very closely to see how ir progresses. If not, we are working to get the regulation fixed.
    You're the bee's knees Phillip. Thanks for putting it in perspective.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    dng wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    I stopped by Dance's Sporting Goods in Colonial Heights today. They had a really cool Para Long Slide 1911 I was checking out when I heard one of the salesman tell some prospective gun buyers that open carry was illegal in the City of Richmond and in Alexandria.

    This guy said he was an instructor and he was in the know. I told him about preemption. I am officially a 2nd amendment activist snob. I hear the stupidest stuff at gun shows and gun counters.
    I've been wanting to stop by Dance's to check their prices. I guess I have another reason to go now: my gun needs to go for a walk, and I would love to do a little talking to this salesman. Hopefully he's got his facts straight now, but I'm sure it would still blow his mind having an OCer in his store.
    I've OC'd in Dance's more than once. None of the guys behind the counter have ever said a negative word about it.

    I did some holster shopping there on one occasion. They had no problem with me dropping my mag, showing the chamber was cleared, and test fitting the pistol in several holsters.

    BTW, their prices are hit and miss.. They have some good deals, but then you see a few price tags that make you wonder a bit.

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    Bill in VA wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    ... Preemption applies to LOCALITIES, not state agencies. However, state agencies should only be able to ban guns up to the point that the General Assembly allows them to do so.
    ....
    Not trying to be arguementative here, Philip, but what about the highlighted part of 15.2-915? Would that not apply to state agencies? In other words, my understanding of this particular clause is that it is what prevents state and local agencies/authorities (suchVPI&SU, the local library, city parks, Waterside, etc...) from prohibiting carrying of firearms, so why wouldn't it also apply to state parks and others in asimialr vein?

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

    B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

    (1987, c. 629, § 15.1-29.15; 1988, c. 392; 1997, cc. 550, 587; 2002, c. 484; 2003, c. 943; 2004, cc. 837, 923.)

    Because section 15.2 refers only to what localities can or can't do.


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