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Thread: Wisconsin tree planter's open carry hearing is February 17, 2009 at the West Allis City Courtroom

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    http://dailykenoshan.com/index.php?o...amp;Itemid=107

    A West Allis man was arrested for planting a tree in his yard
    Written by Gene German
    Friday, 13 February 2009


    A West Allis man was arrested for planting a tree in his yard. Officers got a call from a neighbor asking if a person within the city limits can lawfully possess an openly carried weapon and responded by sending two squads. They found Brad Krause digging a hole for the tree lying next to him. Seeing the officers pull up in front of his house, Brad asked, "Can I help you?" The officers drew their weapons on the environmentalist and placed him under arrest.

    It turns out the Wisconsin Supreme Court has heard many cases about concealed weapons, each time the Attorney General's office arguing that open carry is explicitly legal, so the concealed carry statute doesn't violate Article I Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution. Under then Attorney Jim Doyle the AG's office said in front of the Wisconsin Supreme Court a person could walk down State Street in Madison with an openly displayed weapon and have no problem doing so.

    At his first hearing, officers testified they saw a man planting a tree, identified he had a holstered weapon, and automatically drew their guns and pointed them at him while shouting orders. His attorney asked what provoked the officers to use deadly force in such an otherwise uneventful situation. Both officers, who coincidentally carry weapons openly under the same authority granted Mr. Krause by law, answered, "He had a gun."

    Krause's next hearing is February 17, 2009 at the West Allis City Courtroom. If the court finds in favor of Mr. Krause, it may mean nearly every citizen can lawfully start carrying a weapon in public. Reporters and cameras are welcome.


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    Mike wrote:
    ...He had a gun.
    RUN FOR THE HILLS :what:

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    I've always been under the impression that the only justification for a police officer to point a loaded firearm at anybody was a reasonable perceived dangerous threat to themselves or others. Mike, are there any court rulings (with a quotation) about such force without proper provocation? If stopping somebody for failing to use their turn signal isn't grounds for endangering their life at the business end of a .40S&W, is the mere known (or possible) possession of firearm grounds for violating Rule #2 of gun safety?

    Serious question we've should all ask ourselves. I'm just curious if the courts have ever asked it yet...

    AC

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    ACEllis wrote:
    I've always been under the impression that the only justification for a police officer to point a loaded firearm at anybody was a reasonable perceived dangerous threat to themselves or others. Mike, are there any court rulings (with a quotation) about such force without proper provocation?
    No idea, but as soon as Brad wins the bogus criminal case against him he should obtain counsel on this matter with an eye toward filing a civil lawsuit against the City of West allis for a variety of violations of his civil rights - that's what folks in PA, VA, and LA do and it really works to send a signal!

    A competent attorney filing such an action on contingency basis is the legal equivilent of a cruise missile being fired at this rediculous idea that open carry is disorderly conduct or otherwise worthy of police harassment in Wisconsin.

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    Well good luck to the Wisconsin men and women fighting the good fight.

    On a side note Mike, the Feb 12nd USA Today article concerning open carry reform in four states, I found a copy of the paper in the restaurant I worked at so I circled the article and wrote a few things in the margins: The OCDO site address, the fact that OC is legal everywhere in Colorado with the exclusion of Denver City/County, and "A right unexercised is a right lost."

    I made sure that paper stayed very visible on the top of the pile by the cash register. A little bit of viral marketing for us.

    AC

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    ACEllis wrote:
    I've always been under the impression that the only justification for a police officer to point a loaded firearm at anybody was a reasonable perceived dangerous threat to themselves or others. Mike, are there any court rulings (with a quotation) about such force without proper provocation? If stopping somebody for failing to use their turn signal isn't grounds for endangering their life at the business end of a .40S&W, is the mere known (or possible) possession of firearm grounds for violating Rule #2 of gun safety?

    Serious question we've should all ask ourselves. I'm just curious if the courts have ever asked it yet...

    AC
    Most police departments would consider that Level I or II Use of Force - Officer Presences and/or Verbal Commands. It does not become deadly force until a shot is fired. And this has been accepted by the courts.

    Here is a run down on a general Use of Force Policy of most Law Enforcements Agencies (verbage may vary - edited to say this)

    Level I - Officer Presence
    Level II - Verbal Commands (Some combine Level I and II)
    Level III - Soft Empty Hand Control Techinques
    Level IV - Hard Control Techinques / Pepper Spray (varies between LE agencies when to use Pepper Spray)
    Level V - Intermediate Weapon - Expandable Baton, Taser
    Level VI - Deadly Force

    Now, I am not going to second guess on what the Officers did with a man with a holstered gun, but depending on the gentleman's demeanor, I may or may not have done what the Officers did. I would not have arrested the man if he was in his own yard, which is what the report was stating. Also, was the Officer's weapons "pointed" at the gentleman in the yard or where the weapons at the "ready position"?

    Lot's of "arm-chair quarterbacking" goes on with these types of reports. I do hope the gentleman does resolve this and the reports seem to be he was not doing anything wrong.

    And yes I have been in LE.

    GUNZ

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    "*If* the court finds in favor of Mr. Krause, it *may* mean nearly every citizen can lawfully start carrying a weapon in public".

    *IF* *MAY*????? Corrected below.

    *WHEN*the court finds in favor of Mr. Krause, it*WILL* mean nearly every citizen can lawfully start carrying a weapon in public.

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    *

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    On his own property? Sounds like typical overkill by bullying cops. An armed citizen detracts from their glamourous, dramatic image, so they just ignore laws they don't like.

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    Pointman,

    I don't disagree with you and that is what I said in my statement along with some extra information to better inform the general public. Again, I don't like to second guess LEOs, but I use these stories/testimonies as training tools for my own personal growth.

    Being in the military and having lived in many different states, VA being the "best" of them for firearm laws, I understand that open carry is legal in other states. Unfortunately, it is not the normal thing that people see every day in their lives except to see LEOs doing it.

    Again, my posting was merely an informative one.

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    Pointman wrote:
    The "us against them" mentality needs to stop. We're on the same side.
    I like analogies with benchmarking to other states' practices - they are like pictures and charts in words - "Like most states, open carry in Wisconsin is both legal and constittuonally protected. There's no more reason for police to arrest an open carrier that there is to arrest someone crrying a cell phone on their belt."

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    Mike wrote:
    Pointman wrote:
    The "us against them" mentality needs to stop. We're on the same side.
    I like analogies with benchmarking to other states' practices - they are like pictures and charts in words - "Like most states, open carry in Wisconsin is both legal and constittuonally protected. There's no more reason for police to arrest an open carrier that there is to arrest someone crrying a cell phone on their belt."
    Personally I find cell phones much more offensive and annoying.
    A. Gold

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    Mike wrote:
    ... as soon as Brad wins the bogus criminal case against him ...
    Technically it's not a criminal case. In Wisconsin municipal court cases are considered civil cases.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
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    The problem with the 'us against them' situation, is that the Police are the ones creating it.

    It's not a chicken or the egg scenario.

    When a Police Officer chooses to become a criminal, that makes him an enemy. He/she no longer has any special carte blanche to go pointing his gun at someone. He/she actually never had any such authority to begin with. The Citizen is in no way responsible for this Officer's choice. But a Citizen does have a, by definition, Civic Duty, to put that Office in his/her place; out of work. Permanently, should the Officer's ego be large enough to threaten a Citizen's life for no reason at all.

    An Officer making deadly threats with his weapon, without cause, reason or provocation, is no different from a common thug demanding your wallet at knife-point.

    It is "us or them." Citizens and Criminals. Wearing a uniform does not create some magical means to commit criminal acts without becoming an enemy of civilized society.

    For those who do not stoop to that level; thank you. For those who do, don't cross me boy. You're no different from any other common thug, and will be treated accordingly.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Just goes to show you, people that are STUPID, should keep their mouths shut.

    Watch how fast they change the law.

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    blackshark what do you mean by that? But in other light, pointman your right there lucky it didn't turn out worse, Imagine if they were in plain clothes. Fact is, is that anybody expecially police that come armed and pointing their guns at an armed law abiding citizen homeowner whos planting a feaking tree lack common sense, and are a denger to society. Thank god it didn't turn out worse!

    The Police in this case put brads life, their own and others that could have been caught in crossfire at risk, this is gross neglagence on the part of the police department. I mean what did his neighbor say to the police?? "My neighbor is planting a tree in HIS yard and has a weapon in a holster on his hip" dam thats a real dangerthey should have called SWAT in too....... I respect police and know they face dangers but they should have used ALOTT more common sense in this case,the departments actions were truely pathetic.

    Ben


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    They could have sent in the Manly Men with their automatic weapons. If a man dares to carry a gun who knows what other rights he might choose to exercise? It could shred the fabric of the JBT state. It might even be smart to throw him in prison on principle.

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    I try to support law enforcement as much as the next guy. These cops really over reacted. Did they think he was going to throw his shovel at them?

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    Are the transcripts or audio recording of the police encounter posted or published?

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    BJA wrote:
    blackshark what do you mean by that? But in other light, pointman your right there lucky it didn't turn out worse, Imagine if they were in plain clothes. Fact is, is that anybody expecially police that come armed and pointing their guns at an armed law abiding citizen homeowner whos planting a feaking tree lack common sense, and are a denger to society. Thank god it didn't turn out worse!

    The Police in this case put brads life, their own and others that could have been caught in crossfire at risk, this is gross neglagence on the part of the police department. I mean what did his neighbor say to the police?? "My neighbor is planting a tree in HIS yard and has a weapon in a holster on his hip" dam thats a real dangerthey should have called SWAT in too....... I respect police and know they face dangers but they should have used ALOTT more common sense in this case,the departments actions were truely pathetic.

    Ben
    When the general stupid public, sees the results of the trial, where he wins the case, they may start carying, with out any understading of the law and may not know how to handle a firearm. That will cause a problem for the cause and right. And yes, I agree that the cops acted kinda dumb. I lived in NJ, for a while. In the wooded section of the north. Sunday, around noon, I was shooting in my backyard. A hillside and many acres as a backstop. Some busybody, called the cops and said "shots fired." Well, low and behold, one cop, arrives on the site, my land, drives up to me and asks if I was shooting guns. I had 10 or 15 guns on the table and I was holding a rifle. He came alone. Not too bright for a call of shots fired. He never unholsterd his gun and was very meek in his demeaner. The cop told me that I needed to be shooting at a target, which I had posted, and the range had to be approved by the city. He then left. My shooting buddy, lived next door, about 300 yds away. same thing happened to him a few months later.

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    Bump. Important day in WI.

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