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Thread: OC at a Norfolk Admirals hockey game?

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    My wife just won a family 4 pack of tickets to an upcoming home game andI was wondering if anyone has ever OC'd to one of there games. I have yet to attend one of there games but I know its at the Scope and have been their for gun shows, concerts, and the circus.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Bullbuster wrote:
    My wife just won a family 4 pack of tickets to an upcoming home game andI was wondering if anyone has ever OC'd to one of there games. I have yet to attend one of there games but I know its at the Scope and have been their for gun shows, concerts, and the circus.
    It would appear that the City of Norfolk owns and operates the Scope.
    http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1998/March/093.htm.html

    So IMO you should be good to go but would not be surprised if you draw extra attention.
    Might want to check this out further for any update info regarding ownership so as to not be "Watersided."

    Yata hey
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    Heh, maybe you can get Dan to go with you...

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    possumboy wrote:
    Heh, maybe you can get Dan to go with you...
    Well he is free and the last time I saw him he had put on a little weight.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Bullbuster wrote:
    My wife just won a family 4 pack of tickets to an upcoming home game andI was wondering if anyone has ever OC'd to one of there games. I have yet to attend one of there games but I know its at the Scope and have been their for gun shows, concerts, and the circus.
    OC to a hockey game? Sounds like a good idea to me. A fight might break out.

    Did you carry enough gun to handle an out-of-control lion or elephant at the circus? Did anyone see your gun and think you were part of the show? :what:

    (It's actually their games and been there. )
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Grapeshot wrote: [quote]Bullbuster wrote:
    My wife just won a family 4 pack of tickets to an upcoming home game andI was wondering if anyone has ever OC'd to one of there games. I have yet to attend one of there games but I know its at the Scope and have been their for gun shows, concerts, and the circus.
    It would appear that the City of Norfolk owns and operates the Scope.
    2a4all wrote:

    Bullbuster wrote:
    My wife just won a family 4 pack of tickets to an upcoming home game andI was wondering if anyone has ever OC'd to one of there games. I have yet to attend one of there games but I know its at the Scope and have been their for gun shows, concerts, and the circus.
    OC to a hockey game? Sounds like a good idea to me. A fight might break out.

    Did you carry enough gun to handle an out-of-control lion or elephant at the circus? Did anyone see your gun and think you were part of the show? :what:

    (It's actually their games and been there. )
    The fights are the best part of the game aside from a cold beer if thats your fancy.

    Never said I OC to the circus but rather I had been to the scope with my kids to see it. Should have and then walked right up to them PETA fruit cakes and asked them to sign my autograph hunting and fishing licenses.

    spells check don't pick that bad grammers likes thats up.


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Some problem editing I see. Maybe it was the late hour.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    They search purses at the door. No metal detectors or wands either. Quite a few NPD walking around at the game! Nothing says no weapons on the door. I would put a ton of money on it that they will not let you through that door OC'n.



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    Chkultr wrote:
    They search purses at the door. No metal detectors or wands either. Quite a few NPD walking around at the game! Nothing says no weapons on the door. I would put a ton of money on it that they will not let you through that door OC'n.
    Sounds like a civil case waiting to happen. Norfolk is way behind in the learning curve.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Some problem editing I see. Maybe it was the late hour.

    Yata hey
    Your right on that. Was in about the 20th hour of what became nearly a 28 hour day. All rested up now and will fix my botched quote attempt.
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    Chkultr wrote:
    They search purses at the door. No metal detectors or wands either. Quite a few NPD walking around at the game! Nothing says no weapons on the door. I would put a ton of money on it that they will not let you through that door OC'n.

    Our family went there for another event last year, both adults CCing. Guy at door insists on searching wife's purse. I ask why. He says for illegal items. OK whatever. Dude completely overlooked (or maybe not?) spare mag for wife's HK USP 40. Guess he figured no booze so we must be OK...
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    Signs on the door state no food, drink or smoking! I have not seen a no firearms sign any where. The entrances on top or the one from the ticket counter...

    IMHO I would not try and OC at the Admiral's Game! If someone does please let us know how that goes!

    They are ready to check the bags at the door. I think the illegal items would be the food. Y'all tell me.

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    Well crud I can't figure out how to separate it all and have it work. Forgive me in my lack of expertise in editing.



    edit-- for fat finger typing
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    Bullbuster wrote:
    Well crud I can figure out how to separate it all and have it work. Forgive me in my lack of expertise in editing.
    Don't feel bad, this is the worst bulletin board software I've ever seen. I don't mean to complain, especially since it's free for the users, but I sure hope that Mike and John didn't pay anything for it.

    Especially when it comes to quoting multiple nested quotes, it can be impossible to get right once it gets out of whack. Many times I've abandoned a reply and just started over again from scratch.

    It also has a lot of trouble with links. Once you embed a link, it is impossible to fix. Any attempt to correct a link only fixes the text, not the link itself. The only solution I've found is to delete the whole link, and add it in again from scratch.

    TFred


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    Back to the topic at hand, if the arena is indeed owned by the city, then as we just confirmed (yet once again), it would be quite illegal for them to ban firearms, and any sign saying so would be invalid.

    The anti-gunners hate it when you say stuff like this, but hey, anyone looking for a payoff?

    TFred

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    TFred wrote:
    Back to the topic at hand, if the arena is indeed owned by the city, then as we just confirmed (yet once again), it would be quite illegal for them to ban firearms, and any sign saying so would be invalid.

    The anti-gunners hate it when you say stuff like this, but hey, anyone looking for a payoff?

    TFred


    The reason they hate it is because it doesn't conform to the way they want things. If its legal make it illegal.
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    if you have a laser on your pistol this may be a consideration :

    http://www.sevenvenues.com/about/visitor_info/scope

    LASER POINTERS
    Laser pointers are not permitted in Norfolk Scope.

    From the same page:

    PROHIBITED ITEMS
    Norfolk Scope does not allow laser pointers, noisemakers, fireworks, inflatable items, large parcels, outside food/beverage or weapons in the arena.

    RESTRICTIONS
    In the interest of guest safety and enjoyment, Norfolk Scope reserves the right to prevent certain items from being carried into the arena. These include, but are not limited to things which can be used as dangerous projectiles. Similarly, other items that may jeopardize the safety or viewing/listening enjoyment of other guests may be prohibited.



    the Scope has a permit todispense beer for on premis consumption so open carry is the only legaloption.-Jay






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    Jason Rogers wrote:
    if you have a laser on your pistol this may be a consideration :

    http://www.sevenvenues.com/about/visitor_info/scope

    LASER POINTERS
    Laser pointers are not permitted in Norfolk Scope.

    From the same page:

    PROHIBITED ITEMS
    Norfolk Scope does not allow laser pointers, noisemakers, fireworks, inflatable items, large parcels, outside food/beverage or weapons in the arena.

    RESTRICTIONS
    In the interest of guest safety and enjoyment, Norfolk Scope reserves the right to prevent certain items from being carried into the arena. These include, but are not limited to things which can be used as dangerous projectiles. Similarly, other items that may jeopardize the safety or viewing/listening enjoyment of other guests may be prohibited.

    the Scope has a permit todispense beer for on premise consumption so open carry is the only legaloption.-Jay
    Good find.

    Lets see if I've got this right - City of Norfolk owns the Scope, state preemption still valid, City of Norfolk keeps rule against weapons (includes guns) on books.

    While I would argue that my laser sights are not "laser pointers" in this case I would probably defer and carry old fashion open irons so as not to cloud the issue.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Jason Rogers wrote:
    the Scope has a permit todispense beer for on premis consumption so open carry is the only legaloption.-Jay
    I couldnt find the Scope listed in the ABC license search. I think that they may not qualify as a bar or restaurant and that CC may be ok. Does the beer selling occur in a restaurant area or is it for the seating area?


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    ProShooter wrote:
    Jason Rogers wrote:
    the Scope has a permit todispense beer for on premis consumption so open carry is the only legaloption.-Jay
    I couldnt find the Scope listed in the ABC license search. I think that they may not qualify as a bar or restaurant and that CC may be ok. Does the beer selling occur in a restaurant area or is it for the seating area?

    I'm busted. I assumed the permit. I have never been and I do not know if the Scope has the guys walking around with the beer trays or if you get the beer from a stand. But in either case I would be suprised if you could not drink the beer in your seat. For all I knowthere may be no beer at the Scope. I have never been to any arena that did not though.-Jay

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I had an email back and forth with one of the property managers a while ago, he was a bit vague in his replies. Lets see if I can dig that up...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    OK my original letter:

    ----------------------------------------------------
    October 4, 2007
    Mr. Ramstine, (john.rhamstine@norfolk.gov)

    I recently attended an event at the Norfolk Scope. A certain activity undertaken by one of your employees has left me, as a former law enforcement officer, with some concerns.

    As I and my wife, and our two children, approached the ticketing area from the garage, we were stopped, and my wife was asked to open her purse for inspection. She inquired as to the nature of the search, and was told it was "for weapons." Please note that there were no police officers in the immediate area during this encounter.

    My wife consented to the search due to the lateness of our arrival, but I must tell you that otherwise there would have been a refusal.

    The employee used a flashlight to look around inside the purse. The search was quite ineffective, considering he overlooked two items that could have been considered weapons or weapons components. Once the search was completed, we approached a sign indicating that bags, cameras, etc. were not allowed inside Scope, but no mention was made of weapons. I assume the search was in lieu of having to take the purse back to the car?

    At no time was the baby stroller or baby bag searched, or for that matter our persons. We were not advised that weapons were prohibited inside Scope, either by your employee or by signage, yet the purse was searched "for weapons." We were never asked if we had weapons, or if we had permits for weapons. Was the search really for weapons, or was that a convenient excuse?

    Could you please clarify whether Scope bans the possession of weapons on it's property, and if so, exactly what types of weapons are banned and searched for?

    If this employee had discovered a weapon in my wife's purse, what would have been his immediate course of action?

    Would I or my wife have been in danger had the employee attempted to handle said weapon?

    What training do these employees get in weapons handling?

    What if a weapon is discovered and a physical confrontation takes place involving the employee?

    I assume that Scope is public property, owned by the City of Norfolk. Is Scope public or private property?

    In light of the recent publicity in Norfolk regarding police officers illegally arresting or otherwise harassing citizens that openly carry firearms, and considering that Virginia has state preemption of local firearms ordinances, do you as the Director of the Scope, have the legal authority to ban the possession of firearms?

    What is your policy when citizens are found in possession of handguns, who are also in possession of a valid concealed handgun permit?

    In light of these concerns, is the search of a woman's purse really an effective tool, or a liability?

    I look forward to your reply.

    Thank you,
    --------------------------------------------------------- RE: Scope policies on searches Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:34 PM From: "Rhamstine, John" <john.rhamstine@norfolk.gov>

    Thanks for taking the time to write. I am in the process of gather information about your visit and will respond once I have completed my review. John Rhamstine, CFE Director-----------------------------------------------------
    Flag this message Security Procedures at SCOPE Friday, December 21, 2007 9:18 AM From: "Cimino, Alice" <Alice.Cimino@norfolk.gov>
    Please find the attached letter from Steve Harper, Acting Director as a response to your inquiry to John Rhamstine, Director on October 4, 2007. Please call me if you should need additional information.
    Alice Cimino
    Office Manager
    Norfolk SCOPE
    Department of Cultural Facilities, Arts & Entertainment
    757-664-6954 Phone
    757-664-6990 Fax
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    The letter:
    Sorry, can't get it to open correctly, will have to do it later at home. The gist, it specifies, among other things, "illegal weapons" but does not say what makes a weapon "illegal" or how they determine such.






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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'd be willing to bet bucks that they read your letter, had someone with a
    legal clue look it over, had the proverbial "oh shoot" moment, suddenly
    changed the policy from "no weapons" to "no illegal weapons", and left
    it at that.

    Just speculation on my part, of course... but I betcha...

    TFred


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    OK got it to work, here's the letter:

    December 20, 2007
    Dear:
    Please accept my apology for the fact that I have not replied sooner to your October 4th inquiry about SCOPE security procedure.
    You related an incident which occurred as you attended an event at SCOPE with your family and there was a visual inspection of your wife’s purse. You inquired concerning the security procedures which are used at SCOPE.
    In operating an entertainment facility for the public, the City addresses the safety and security of SCOPE patrons. Items which are prohibited from being brought into SCOPE are illegal weapons, food and beverages, cameras and recording devices, backpacks and large parcels, laser pointers, noisemakers, fireworks, inflatable items and coolers. The listed items are the same or similar to items listed an entertainment/ assembly facilities in this region and across the country.
    If the SCOPE staff determines that any of the listed items is present, the patron may return the item to his or her car or may choose not to enter the facility. If an illegal weapon is found, SCOPE staff is trained to call over a Norfolk Police Officer who is working at the event to handle the matter in accordance with police department procedures under applicable local and state laws.
    Our procedures are intended to ensure the safety and well-being of all SCOPE patrons and, as noted above, are the same or similar to procedures in place at other major facilities.
    Sincerely,

    Steve Harper CFE
    Acting Director
    Cultural Facilities, Arts & Entertainment
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I wonder how the staff is trained to recognize an "illegal weapon"?

    It definitely sounds like he is trying not to violate preemption, but how
    it's handled in real life may be completely different.

    TFred


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