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OC at a Norfolk Admirals hockey game?

paramedic70002

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OK my original letter:

----------------------------------------------------
October 4, 2007
Mr. Ramstine, (john.rhamstine@norfolk.gov)

I recently attended an event at the Norfolk Scope. A certain activity undertaken by one of your employees has left me, as a former law enforcement officer, with some concerns.

As I and my wife, and our two children, approached the ticketing area from the garage, we were stopped, and my wife was asked to open her purse for inspection. She inquired as to the nature of the search, and was told it was "for weapons." Please note that there were no police officers in the immediate area during this encounter.

My wife consented to the search due to the lateness of our arrival, but I must tell you that otherwise there would have been a refusal.

The employee used a flashlight to look around inside the purse. The search was quite ineffective, considering he overlooked two items that could have been considered weapons or weapons components. Once the search was completed, we approached a sign indicating that bags, cameras, etc. were not allowed inside Scope, but no mention was made of weapons. I assume the search was in lieu of having to take the purse back to the car?

At no time was the baby stroller or baby bag searched, or for that matter our persons. We were not advised that weapons were prohibited inside Scope, either by your employee or by signage, yet the purse was searched "for weapons." We were never asked if we had weapons, or if we had permits for weapons. Was the search really for weapons, or was that a convenient excuse?

Could you please clarify whether Scope bans the possession of weapons on it's property, and if so, exactly what types of weapons are banned and searched for?

If this employee had discovered a weapon in my wife's purse, what would have been his immediate course of action?

Would I or my wife have been in danger had the employee attempted to handle said weapon?

What training do these employees get in weapons handling?

What if a weapon is discovered and a physical confrontation takes place involving the employee?

I assume that Scope is public property, owned by the City of Norfolk. Is Scope public or private property?

In light of the recent publicity in Norfolk regarding police officers illegally arresting or otherwise harassing citizens that openly carry firearms, and considering that Virginia has state preemption of local firearms ordinances, do you as the Director of the Scope, have the legal authority to ban the possession of firearms?

What is your policy when citizens are found in possession of handguns, who are also in possession of a valid concealed handgun permit?

In light of these concerns, is the search of a woman's purse really an effective tool, or a liability?

I look forward to your reply.

Thank you,
---------------------------------------------------------http://us.mc375.mail.yahoo.com/mc/s...AYV2Rw56vgUw7iJG9yM&mcrumb=ZfD2dOw2U5H&flag=1 RE: Scope policies on searches Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:34 PM From: "Rhamstine, John" <john.rhamstine@norfolk.gov>

Thanks for taking the time to write. I am in the process of gather information about your visit and will respond once I have completed my review. John Rhamstine, CFE Director-----------------------------------------------------
Flag this message Security Procedures at SCOPE Friday, December 21, 2007 9:18 AM From: "Cimino, Alice" <Alice.Cimino@norfolk.gov>
Please find the attached letter from Steve Harper, Acting Director as a response to your inquiry to John Rhamstine, Director on October 4, 2007. Please call me if you should need additional information.
Alice Cimino
Office Manager
Norfolk SCOPE
Department of Cultural Facilities, Arts & Entertainment
757-664-6954 Phone
757-664-6990 Fax
------------------------------------------------------------------
The letter:
Sorry, can't get it to open correctly, will have to do it later at home. The gist, it specifies, among other things, "illegal weapons" but does not say what makes a weapon "illegal" or how they determine such.
 

TFred

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I'd be willing to bet bucks that they read your letter, had someone with a
legal clue look it over, had the proverbial "oh shoot" moment, suddenly
changed the policy from "no weapons" to "no illegal weapons", and left
it at that.

Just speculation on my part, of course... but I betcha... :)

TFred
 

paramedic70002

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OK got it to work, here's the letter:

December 20, 2007
Dear:
Please accept my apology for the fact that I have not replied sooner to your October 4[sup]th[/sup] inquiry about SCOPE security procedure.
You related an incident which occurred as you attended an event at SCOPE with your family and there was a visual inspection of your wife’s purse. You inquired concerning the security procedures which are used at SCOPE.
In operating an entertainment facility for the public, the City addresses the safety and security of SCOPE patrons. Items which are prohibited from being brought into SCOPE are illegal weapons, food and beverages, cameras and recording devices, backpacks and large parcels, laser pointers, noisemakers, fireworks, inflatable items and coolers. The listed items are the same or similar to items listed an entertainment/ assembly facilities in this region and across the country.
If the SCOPE staff determines that any of the listed items is present, the patron may return the item to his or her car or may choose not to enter the facility. If an illegal weapon is found, SCOPE staff is trained to call over a Norfolk Police Officer who is working at the event to handle the matter in accordance with police department procedures under applicable local and state laws.
Our procedures are intended to ensure the safety and well-being of all SCOPE patrons and, as noted above, are the same or similar to procedures in place at other major facilities.
Sincerely,

[align=justify]Steve Harper CFE [/align] Acting Director
Cultural Facilities, Arts & Entertainment
 

TFred

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I wonder how the staff is trained to recognize an "illegal weapon"?

It definitely sounds like he is trying not to violate preemption, but how
it's handled in real life may be completely different.

TFred
 

TFred

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ProShooter wrote:
TFred wrote:
I wonder how the staff is trained to recognize an "illegal weapon"?

It definitely sounds like he is trying not to violate preemption, but how
it's handled in real life may be completely different.

TFred
Maybe we need to do an OC hockey night!
Dan would be arrested, everyone else would probably be waved right on by!

:X

TFred
 

ProShooter

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This thread made me curious about the Richmond Coliseum.

I emailed them and they stated that the Colisuem is owned by the City of Richmond. Their website states that they prohibit "Weapons and dangerous devices of any type".

Naturally, I followed up with the question about lawfully carried firearms. I'm anxious to see their response.
 

Grapeshot

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ProShooter wrote:
This thread made me curious about the Richmond Coliseum.

I emailed them and they stated that the Coliseum is owned by the City of Richmond. Their website states that they prohibit "Weapons and dangerous devices of any type".

Naturally, I followed up with the question about lawfully carried firearms. I'm anxious to see their response.
We have an epidemic of preemption viruses - let us know what their response is.

Yata hey
 

buster81

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ProShooter wrote:
This thread made me curious about the Richmond Coliseum.

I emailed them and they stated that the Colisuem is owned by the City of Richmond. Their website states that they prohibit "Weapons and dangerous devices of any type".

Naturally, I followed up with the question about lawfully carried firearms. I'm anxious to see their response.

Two quotes from their website. I assume the search is also no good since it's public property?

Firearms/Weapons
No persons are permitted to bring weapons of any kind into the arena with the exception of local, state, and federal law enforcement officials.

Searches
For the safety and comfort of our guests, we reserve the right to search the belongings of any guest prior to entering the Richmond Coliseum or while on our premises. A search may consist of the following: the guest being asked to open any coat, bag or container and also be physically patted down or screened with a metal detector. If contraband is detected, the guest will be asked to dispose of such item(s) prior to entering the building. Guest may be detained if the item(s) discovered is of an illegal nature. Purses, diaper bags and other small personal bags are allowed, but will be inspected at all entrances. Guests with prohibited items will be turned away at entrances. No storage or "check in" area will be provided for such items. Items confiscated at entry will not be returned.
 

MackTheKnife

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Grapeshot wrote:
Jason Rogers wrote:
if you have a laser on your pistol this may be a consideration :):

http://www.sevenvenues.com/about/visitor_info/scope

LASER POINTERS
Laser pointers are not permitted in Norfolk Scope.

From the same page:

PROHIBITED ITEMS
Norfolk Scope does not allow laser pointers, noisemakers, fireworks, inflatable items, large parcels, outside food/beverage or weapons in the arena.

RESTRICTIONS
In the interest of guest safety and enjoyment, Norfolk Scope reserves the right to prevent certain items from being carried into the arena. These include, but are not limited to things which can be used as dangerous projectiles. Similarly, other items that may jeopardize the safety or viewing/listening enjoyment of other guests may be prohibited.

the Scope has a permit todispense beer for on premise consumption so open carry is the only legaloption.-Jay
Good find.

Lets see if I've got this right - City of Norfolk owns the Scope, state preemption still valid, City of Norfolk keeps rule against weapons (includes guns) on books.

While I would argue that my laser sights are not "laser pointers" in this case I would probably defer and carry old fashion open irons so as not to cloud the issue.

Yata hey
I wonder if OC is the only option? The OC only/alcohol issue is germane only as to a "restaurant or club" in the state CC staute. Outdoor events, such as the infamous Harborfest, serves alcohol, and CC would be legal there.
 

Chkultr

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Scope might indeed be city owned, but it is a private event if the Admirals are not owned by the city. Just like a concert, comedian, gun show..... so they can ban weapons and do searches for that event....

Any ideas suggestions on this theory?

Thanks to my bud for bringing this one up
 

Grapeshot

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Chkultr wrote:
Scope might indeed be city owned, but it is a private event if the Admirals are not owned by the city. Just like a concert, comedian, gun show..... so they can ban weapons and do searches for that event....

Any ideas suggestions on this theory?

Thanks to my bud for bringing this one up
I don't think so. If this were the case a city like Norfolk could lease any city owned property to an outside group who could make their own rules. Imagine city parks being leased to a private entity because they would allegedly be more efficient at operating them and then saying "No Guns Allowed" as we are private not public.

City owned property is covered under preemption and IMO they cannot lease your rights away. Now if the property is sold, completely and absolutely, that may be a different matter.

This has been tested before at county fairs on county property and of course at Festival Park in Norfolk. The city/county cannot hide behind a private operator.

Yata hey
 

Bullbuster

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The family and I will be attending this Fridays game against Providence. After some bickering with the wife and a select few PM's over this I have decided that I will not OC or CC like recommended for obvious reasons. I will however inquire with security and try and speak to any manager that may be in house. I'll also check to see if any of the signs have changed or if they are still the same ones that just say "no illegal weapons".
 

Chkultr

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Signs only say no food drink smoking inside.....Take a picture and post if you can


Thanks for clearing up the discussion I had with my friend...He made the comment so I through it out here for a response.....
 

buster81

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ProShooter wrote:
This thread made me curious about the Richmond Coliseum.

I emailed them and they stated that the Colisuem is owned by the City of Richmond. Their website states that they prohibit "Weapons and dangerous devices of any type".

Naturally, I followed up with the question about lawfully carried firearms. I'm anxious to see their response.
Did you get any reply to this yet?
 

ProShooter

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buster81 wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
This thread made me curious about the Richmond Coliseum.

I emailed them and they stated that the Colisuem is owned by the City of Richmond. Their website states that they prohibit "Weapons and dangerous devices of any type".

Naturally, I followed up with the question about lawfully carried firearms. I'm anxious to see their response.
Did you get any reply to this yet?
Nope. Perhaps time for a follow up.....
 
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