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Thread: OC Questions...

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    SrADaddy wrote:
    darthmord wrote:
    Joed757 wrote:
    and one more ? OC means i can walk around public places with the weapon on my hip and etc. Driving just has to be seen by the officer. And i can have a loaded mag in the weapon just not one in the head?
    IANAL...

    OC in VA means it has to be visible by the common person. If you are wearing it in a holster that is plainly visible in that you are not actively hiding it or covering it with something, you are fine whether you are walking, running, driving, riding,and so on.

    I know of no reason / law / statute in VA as to why you cannot have one in the chamber while OC. I know that many of the folks here (many whose judgement & knowledge I trust) OC with one in the chamber and are not CHP holders.
    This is true... mostly. Driving is the one where people are led astray. The Va law clearly states that a handgun within reasonable reach of the driver, even if in plain sight, will be considered concealed for law enforcement protection purposes. While driving, the weapon must be "securely wrapped" separate from the ammunition which also must be "securely wrapped" http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308 Please post any updated corrections to this for the sake of us all....
    Respectfully, I have to disagree. I read the cite from the link you provided and I read nothing there that would indicate OC is not allowed in motor vehicles without a CHP.

    Also, the link provided had no hits for the words 'motor' or 'vehicle'.

    I believe the text you are referencing 'While driving, the weapon must be "securely wrapped" separate from the ammunition which also must be "securely wrapped" ' comes from transport requirements, not VA Code / Law.

    I just did a bit of searching via Google (search terms: firearms transportation laws) and clicked on the NRA-ILA link and found this little gem of text: If the firearm (handgun, rifle or shotgun) is carried on or about the person, or placed in the camper where it is readily accessible to the driver or any passenger, state and local laws regarding concealed carrying of firearms may apply.

    The link for where that text came from is: http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=59

    In VA, merely wearing your firearm openly is not grounds for being stopped and having it presumed to be concealed. The link you provided earlier tells when a weapon is considered concealed (If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation). An openly carried firearm is NOT a concealed weapon under Virginia Code.

    Thoughts? Feedback?

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    Regular Member crazydude6030's Avatar
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    Been trying to figure this one out myself for awhile. I have pretty much decided to play it safe than sorry. Police don't need a reason to arrest you. With that in mind I would rather them not arrest me on a firearm charge. For that reason when driving I will follow code 18.2-308 to the letter.

    After I get my conceal carry permit then I will be a little more willing to opencarry in the car.

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    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Been trying to figure this one out myself for awhile. I have pretty much decided to play it safe than sorry. Police don't need a reason to arrest you. With that in mind I would rather them not arrest me on a firearm charge. For that reason when driving I will follow code 18.2-308 to the letter.

    After I get my conceal carry permit then I will be a little more willing to opencarry in the car.
    You can carry in a car. I've been stopped many times and had a gun on the front seat. Open carry is legal in Virginia, don't worry.

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    If you don't think the gun in your holster can be seen to qualify as open carry while in your vehicle, then your gun ain't big enough. Go buy a bigger/full size gun. A Smith and Wesson 500 would do the trick.

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    This is all great information, it seems like the web of laws is certainly hard to find the "What do I do" part. I'm going into the Hampton PD tomorrow morning for fingerprints for CC permit (because of the vehicle thing) and I will ask them then, just to see what the PD thinks about the whole, in a vehicle thing. I will post what I learn with officer names and numbers for questions after lunch. I can't wait... I'll probably get three different answers from three different LEOs. I love this forum, lot's of good info.

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    SrADaddy wrote:
    I can't wait... I'll probably get three different answers from three different LEOs. I love this forum, lot's of good info.

    I expect you'll get 3 answers of "it's legal.". Unless the officers enjoy performing false arrests and the law suits that go with them.

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    I'm still amazed that folks get so confused about open carry in a car....its perfectly legal!
    James Reynolds

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    Heck I recall seeing a few pic's from someone on herewho mounted aholster in there car so its plainly seen. Only to take it out of that holster and put it in the one on the hip.

    Someone else on here once said "When in dought lay it out". In the open for those who are pondering that one.
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    The law about carrying a firearm in Virginia revolves around this little phrase; "hidden from common observation". There is much written about it in terms of where and under which/what conditions, but that little phrase can tell you much. So if you happen to have a handgun on your passenger seat, you are perfectly within your legal rights. Now let's say you are looking at a map at a light and when it turns green, you lay the map down on the passenger seat covering your weapon. You just went concealed carry and must have a CHP to do this.

    You enter a restaurant which has ABC-ON and chose a booth with your strong side to the booth wall. Are you concealed or "hidden from common observation"? While it would appear so, the answer is "no", unless you covered your weapon with a shirt tail or jacket.

    "Hidden from common observation" will tell you most everything you need to know.


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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    The law about carrying a firearm in Virginia revolves around this little phrase; "hidden from common observation". There is much written about it in terms of where and under which/what conditions, but that little phrase can tell you much. So if you happen to have a handgun on your passenger seat, you are perfectly within your legal rights. Now let's say you are looking at a map at a light and when it turns green, you lay the map down on the passenger seat covering your weapon. You just went concealed carry and must have a CHP to do this.

    You enter a restaurant which has ABC-ON and chose a booth with your strong side to the booth wall. Are you concealed or "hidden from common observation"? While it would appear so, the answer is "no", unless you covered your weapon with a shirt tail or jacket.

    "Hidden from common observation" will tell you most everything you need to know.

    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.

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    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.
    You are worrying needlessly. You can wear it on your side in the car and that's fine.
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    ProShooter wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.
    You are worrying needlessly. You can wear it on your side in the car and that's fine.
    I need to see the code that applies to that then. The only laws I can find indicate that it is not legal without a conceal carry permit.

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    crazydude6030 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.
    You are worrying needlessly. You can wear it on your side in the car and that's fine.
    I need to see the code that applies to that then. The only laws I can find indicate that it is not legal without a conceal carry permit.
    There is no code that says you can...thank God!
    The code says you can't carry Hidden from common observation. If it makes you uncomfortable OC'ing in a car....don't. But there's no sense in arguing about it. The law is clear and the wording is clear.

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    peter nap wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.
    You are worrying needlessly. You can wear it on your side in the car and that's fine.
    I need to see the code that applies to that then. The only laws I can find indicate that it is not legal without a conceal carry permit.
    There is no code that says you can...thank God!
    The code says you can't carry Hidden from common observation. If it makes you uncomfortable OC'ing in a car....don't. But there's no sense in arguing about it. The law is clear and the wording is clear.
    There is no cite possible for this as it is the absolute lack of any law forbidding it that makes it legal.

    There is no law that says you can stand on one foot but I assure you it is legal - see the point?

    Also you will find no convictions for CC when the citizen was OCing in a vehicle or restaurant booth in Virginia.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.
    You are worrying needlessly. You can wear it on your side in the car and that's fine.
    I need to see the code that applies to that then. The only laws I can find indicate that it is not legal without a conceal carry permit.
    There is no code that says you can...thank God!
    The code says you can't carry Hidden from common observation. If it makes you uncomfortable OC'ing in a car....don't. But there's no sense in arguing about it. The law is clear and the wording is clear.
    There is no cite possible for this as it is the absolute lack of any law forbidding it that makes it legal.

    There is no law that says you can stand on one foot but I assure you it is legal - see the point?

    Also you will find no convictions for CC when the citizen was OCing in a vehicle or restaurant booth in Virginia.

    Yata hey
    No not really, the phrase "Hidden from common observation" is often cited but when I sit in my car it is not common observation. Both the position of the gun and my seat belt pretty much conceal the fact that I have a holstered gun. It goes back to covering your gun with a map is then concealed sorta thing. When I sit down in my car with the gun on my hip it not easily seen.

    If I take my gun out and simply put it on the seat then it seems to be I am then transporting a firearm and not open carrying it. Thus the transportation laws apply. I have read post on this very forum that indicate that guns in the open on a seat can be or will be treated as a concealed firearm.

    Unless I see something that legally that counters what I have interpreted the law to mean I will not carry a gun while in a car with how a CHP. That's just me, maybe I am wrong maybe I am not, but regardless I am going to play this one safe. We can agree to disagree on this one. Regardless it just seems like a better idea to open carry when you have a CHP.

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    crazydude6030 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.
    You are worrying needlessly. You can wear it on your side in the car and that's fine.*
    I need to see the code that applies to that then. The only laws I can find indicate that it is not legal without a conceal carry permit.
    Show me a cite the states open carry is legal. You'll be there a while... There isn't one.

    If I'm standing face to face to a cop he can't see that I'm carrying, would you consider that to be concealed?

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    crazydude6030 wrote:
    [b] Regardless it just seems like a better idea to open carry when you have a CHP.
    Sorry to be an ass, but I believe you are mistaken. I guess I shouldn't be writing this without a typing permit, and I can't believe I'm using a blackberry without a cell phone permit! I should be arrested on the spot for walking down the street without my sidewalk-use permit.

    Edited to not be an ass... And the bold is unintentional.

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    leprechaun117 wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Regardless it just seems like a better idea to open carry when you have a CHP.


    Sorry to be an ass, but you are a troll. I guess I shouldn't be writing this without a typing permit, and I can't believe I'm using a blackberry without a cell phone permit! I should be arrested on the spot for walking down the street without my sidewalk-use permit.

    I doubt you are sorry. If we were in person and you came off like that I understand your being sorry, but to post it in writing you had to have known thus you are not "sorry". Regardless your comment was out of line and uncalled for. So much from being a friendly huh....

    Resorting to name calling because I state what I believe the law to be is a bit uncalled for. I stated the law as I have seen it. I have talked to cops face to face and lawyers alike. The information i have received from them combined with the information presented here has prompted me to make my stand on this.

    If you don't like what I say fine, whatever. Isn't the idea of the forum to share knowledge and opinions?



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    Regular Member crazydude6030's Avatar
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    leprechaun117 wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Yep, that's why I wont carry my gun in the car unless I have a conceal carry. Having it strapped to my hip will hid it from common observation. Moving it out into plan open seems to violate code 18.2-308. Maybe I am wrong here but I would rather play it safe than sorry.
    You are worrying needlessly. You can wear it on your side in the car and that's fine.
    I need to see the code that applies to that then. The only laws I can find indicate that it is not legal without a conceal carry permit.
    Show me a cite the states open carry is legal. You'll be there a while... There isn't one.

    If I'm standing face to face to a cop he can't see that I'm carrying, would you consider that to be concealed?
    Could a LEO interpret that to mean conceal, yes. Is it wrong? I dunno, but I know I cant afford to visit the city jail to find out.

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    leprechaun117 wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    ...
    Show me a cite the states open carry is legal. You'll be there a while... There isn't one.

    If I'm standing face to face to a cop he can't see that I'm carrying, would you consider that to be concealed?
    1)
    Article 1 Bill of Rights.
    ...
    Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power. — That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
    Va. Constitution Va. Con. Art. 1 § 13 (1971)

    2) Doesn't matter what I'd say. I've defended cases in which that's exactly what happened. The cop came in and said he couldn't see the gun and it was therefore "hidden from common observation", because the defendant had it holstered on the other side. I've also defended cases in which the cop said the gun was hidden because it was in a holster. Same with OC in cars. In the General District Courts it all depends which way the judge goes politically; overall I'd say I've won more than half, but the cop succeeded in punishing the defendant because he had to go to the trouble and expense of defending himself.

    So I'm on the side of "better safe than sorry". It's not what's legal, it's what will get you arrested. In our system, all too often, the cops have the idea that it's their idea to identify and arrest the "bad guys". That's because that's what the public expects. In theory, we're all "bad guys", all of us have "broken the law" in some way or another, and we're all (cops included) guilty. That's why the test at trial isn't "innocent or guilty", because no one is "innocent". But that's all theory. Reality is a function of power, and the state and its agents have the power.

    I'm all for people testing the limits and I'd be more than happy to defend anyone who is improperly arrested on account of a purported firearm related offense. But I can also respect those who don't want to have to explain why they missed work on account of having spent the night in jail with the wino's, pimps, and petty burglars.
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    My post came across harsher than it sounded in my head, I have edited it according, I apologize.

    In speaking to lawyers and police officers I've come to the understanding that "concealed" means you are doing something to directly hide your firearm. Sitting in a booth is a good example... No one can see your gun, but you aren't covering it, it just happens to be againt a wall. You are still openly carrying the gun, it is just blocked.

    Like you said, agree to disagree, but as I said... I've had a lot of experince with open carry and the cops. The only time I had a problem was on a bicycle... And I was free to leave once they realized I wasn't breaking any laws. I talked to two officers last night while carrying at UVA, they did not have any issue.

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    Alright here it is... I called officer Turner at the Hampton PD and this is what I got..
    Carrying on your hip, in a car, is LEGAL, as long as the officer can see it when they APPROACH the vehicle. They must not have to look to see if you have one on you, it should be obvious. If not and your shirt accidentally covers it, you're concealed, seatbelt covers it, concealed... Otherwise, it is just fine, then just to test his knowledge I asked about the open carry into places that serve alcohol and he said "nope, not legal at all. I have never heard of anything passing saying that you have to open carry into restaurants that serve alcohol. It is illegal." Hmmm, makes me want to know if I can believe him about the first thing. The # to Hampton PD is 757-727-6111. He said something else that made me kind of irritated: "This isn't the wild west so you shouldn't be carrying out in the open anyway, it is your right, but I advise against it. We get calls all the time about people carrying in public." That's all folks, I'm strapping up and going to a ride!

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    user wrote:
    leprechaun117 wrote:
    crazydude6030 wrote:
    ...
    Show me a cite the states open carry is legal. You'll be there a while... There isn't one.

    If I'm standing face to face to a cop he can't see that I'm carrying, would you consider that to be concealed?
    1)
    Article 1 Bill of Rights.
    ...
    Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power. — That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
    Va. Constitution Va. Con. Art. 1 § 13 (1971)

    2) Doesn't matter what I'd say. I've defended cases in which that's exactly what happened. The cop came in and said he couldn't see the gun and it was therefore "hidden from common observation", because the defendant had it holstered on the other side. I've also defended cases in which the cop said the gun was hidden because it was in a holster. Same with OC in cars. In the General District Courts it all depends which way the judge goes politically; overall I'd say I've won more than half, but the cop succeeded in punishing the defendant because he had to go to the trouble and expense of defending himself.

    So I'm on the side of "better safe than sorry". It's not what's legal, it's what will get you arrested. In our system, all too often, the cops have the idea that it's their idea to identify and arrest the "bad guys". That's because that's what the public expects. In theory, we're all "bad guys", all of us have "broken the law" in some way or another, and we're all (cops included) guilty. That's why the test at trial isn't "innocent or guilty", because no one is "innocent". But that's all theory. Reality is a function of power, and the state and its agents have the power.

    I'm all for people testing the limits and I'd be more than happy to defend anyone who is improperly arrested on account of a purported firearm related offense. But I can also respect those who don't want to have to explain why they missed work on account of having spent the night in jail with the wino's, pimps, and petty burglars.
    Well said. The supreme court did just rule that 2A only allows one to own a gun, not carry it in public. (DC v. Heller)

    I'm only speaking from my experience, I've never had a problem OCing that ended in handcuffs. Any judge who considers holstering a gun to be concealing it doesn't deserve his law degree, but I'm sure they're out there.

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    Regular Member crazydude6030's Avatar
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    SrADaddy wrote:
    ...They must not have to look to see if you have one on you, it should be obvious. If not and your shirt accidentally covers it, you're concealed, seatbelt covers it, concealed...
    And that's pretty much why i decided against it. My car is pretty small and when testing out a conceal carry i pretty much decided that anyone who comes to my car will not be able to see I am concealing.

    I never intended to sound like it was illegal just that I would rather be safe than sorry. Simply put my wife told me she would file for decoice and leave me to rot in jail if i get aressted :shock:

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    crazydude6030 wrote:
    Simply put my wife told me she would file for decoice and leave me to rot in jail if i get aressted :shock:
    That's one way to sway your decision! I'm young and single... Still have no desire to spend a night in jail.

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