OC Questions...

leprechaun117 · Feb 17, 2009

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My post came across harsher than it sounded in my head, I have edited it according, I apologize.

In speaking to lawyers and police officers I've come to the understanding that "concealed" means you are doing something to directly hide your firearm. Sitting in a booth is a good example... No one can see your gun, but you aren't covering it, it just happens to be againt a wall. You are still openly carrying the gun, it is just blocked.

Like you said, agree to disagree, but as I said... I've had a lot of experince with open carry and the cops. The only time I had a problem was on a bicycle... And I was free to leave once they realized I wasn't breaking any laws. I talked to two officers last night while carrying at UVA, they did not have any issue.

SrADaddy · Feb 17, 2009

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Alright here it is... I called officer Turner at the Hampton PD and this is what I got..
Carrying on your hip, in a car, is LEGAL, as long as the officer can see it when they APPROACH the vehicle. They must not have to look to see if you have one on you, it should be obvious. If not and your shirt accidentally covers it, you're concealed, seatbelt covers it, concealed... Otherwise, it is just fine, then just to test his knowledge I asked about the open carry into places that serve alcohol and he said "nope, not legal at all. I have never heard of anything passing saying that you have to open carry into restaurants that serve alcohol. It is illegal." Hmmm, makes me want to know if I can believe him about the first thing. The # to Hampton PD is 757-727-6111. He said something else that made me kind of irritated: "This isn't the wild west so you shouldn't be carrying out in the open anyway, it is your right, but I advise against it. We get calls all the time about people carrying in public." That's all folks, I'm strapping up and going to a ride!:lol:

leprechaun117 · Feb 17, 2009

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user wrote:

leprechaun117 wrote:

crazydude6030 wrote:
...
Show me a cite the states open carry is legal. You'll be there a while... There isn't one.

If I'm standing face to face to a cop he can't see that I'm carrying, would you consider that to be concealed?

Click to expand...

1)

Article 1 Bill of Rights.
...
Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power. — That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

Click to expand...

Va. Constitution Va. Con. Art. 1 § 13 (1971)

2) Doesn't matter what I'd say. I've defended cases in which that's exactly what happened. The cop came in and said he couldn't see the gun and it was therefore "hidden from common observation", because the defendant had it holstered on the other side. I've also defended cases in which the cop said the gun was hidden because it was in a holster. Same with OC in cars. In the General District Courts it all depends which way the judge goes politically; overall I'd say I've won more than half, but the cop succeeded in punishing the defendant because he had to go to the trouble and expense of defending himself.

So I'm on the side of "better safe than sorry". It's not what's legal, it's what will get you arrested. In our system, all too often, the cops have the idea that it's their idea to identify and arrest the "bad guys". That's because that's what the public expects. In theory, we're all "bad guys", all of us have "broken the law" in some way or another, and we're all (cops included) guilty. That's why the test at trial isn't "innocent or guilty", because no one is "innocent". But that's all theory. Reality is a function of power, and the state and its agents have the power.

I'm all for people testing the limits and I'd be more than happy to defend anyone who is improperly arrested on account of a purported firearm related offense. But I can also respect those who don't want to have to explain why they missed work on account of having spent the night in jail with the wino's, pimps, and petty burglars.

Well said. The supreme court did just rule that 2A only allows one to own a gun, not carry it in public. (DC v. Heller)

I'm only speaking from my experience, I've never had a problem OCing that ended in handcuffs. Any judge who considers holstering a gun to be concealing it doesn't deserve his law degree, but I'm sure they're out there.

crazydude6030 · Feb 17, 2009

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SrADaddy wrote:

...They must not have to look to see if you have one on you, it should be obvious. If not and your shirt accidentally covers it, you're concealed, seatbelt covers it, concealed...

And that's pretty much why i decided against it. My car is pretty small and when testing out a conceal carry i pretty much decided that anyone who comes to my car will not be able to see I am concealing.

I never intended to sound like it was illegal just that I would rather be safe than sorry. Simply put my wife told me she would file for decoice and leave me to rot in jail if i get aressted :shock:

leprechaun117 · Feb 17, 2009

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crazydude6030 wrote:

Simply put my wife told me she would file for decoice and leave me to rot in jail if i get aressted :shock:

That's one way to sway your decision! I'm young and single... Still have no desire to spend a night in jail.

ProShooter · Feb 17, 2009

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crazydude6030 wrote:

If I take my gun out and simply put it on the seat then it seems to be I am then transporting a firearm and not open carrying it. Thus the transportation laws apply.

Wrong. You are still considered to be carrying the gun if it is "on or about your person", meaning anywhere within your wingspan (passenger compartment) (18.2-308).

Transporting would be if the gun was locked in the trunk of your car.

ProShooter · Feb 17, 2009

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SrADaddy wrote:

Alright here it is... I called officer Turner at the Hampton PD and this is what I got..
......then just to test his knowledge I asked about the open carry into places that serve alcohol and he said "nope, not legal at all. I have never heard of anything passing saying that you have to open carry into restaurants that serve alcohol. It is illegal."

Sounds like Officer Turner could usea lesson in the Code!

Grapeshot · Feb 17, 2009

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OK crazydude6030 let's try this politely then.

One you do not show your state of residence so we cannot answer your question specifically in accordance with the laws of that entity + its polite to do so & the moderators appreciate it.

In Virginia, OC is legal if you are not of a prohibited group (felon, under 18 yo, mentally incompetent) and is legal due to the absence of a law precluding it. End of story.

You've had multiple responses from individuals with considerable in depth experience OCing, some with not a little LE experience and actively formally instructing.

Still not comfortable OCing in certain circumstances - fine that is your choice - just don't carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol in Va. unless you are OCing.

If you ask a question, be gracious enough to accept the answer. Don't recouch it in other terms repeatedly and expect no one to get frustrated.

Yata hey

user · Feb 17, 2009

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leprechaun117 wrote:

...The supreme court did just rule that 2A only allows one to own a gun, not carry it in public. (DC v. Heller)
...

True, but what I quoted was from the Virginia Constitution, not federal - the language is similar because George Mason copied Virginia's constitution in framing the federal Bill of Rights. That provision, I argue, is what gives the absolute right to OC in Virginia. (Someone earlier had questioned the legal source of the right to OC in Virginia.)

user · Feb 17, 2009

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ProShooter wrote:

SrADaddy wrote:

Alright here it is... I called officer Turner at the Hampton PD and this is what I got..
...... then just to test his knowledge I asked about the open carry into places that serve alcohol and he said "nope, not legal at all. I have never heard of anything passing saying that you have to open carry into restaurants that serve alcohol. It is illegal."

Click to expand...

Sounds like Officer Turner could use a lesson in the Code!

I'm always amused when people ask the police legal questions, and downright amazed when the police actually give legal advice, interpretations, and recommendations. Apparently they don't realize that they can be sued, and found personally liable, for legal malpractice if they're wrong. (That cause of action doesn't require that one received payment for the information or that the person giving the information is an attorney. That's why no clerk of court in any Virginia Circuit Court will give out legal advice.) They're not lawyers, and we don't pay enough to get them legal training beyond the minimum required to get them operational as employees.

user · Feb 17, 2009

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ProShooter wrote:

crazydude6030 wrote:

If I take my gun out and simply put it on the seat then it seems to be I am then transporting a firearm and not open carrying it. Thus the transportation laws apply.

Click to expand...

Wrong. You are still considered to be carrying the gun if it is "on or about your person", meaning anywhere within your wingspan (passenger compartment) (18.2-308).

Transporting would be if the gun was locked in the trunk of your car.

Actually, the term, "carrying" in a legal sense is a synonym for "transporting", which is why Va. Code section 18.2-308 qualifies it with the phrase, "about his person". "Carrying about one's person" is the definition of "in one's possession", which only requires that one be able to exercise immediate dominion and control over the thing (as opposed to actually on the person). So, a firearm locked in a box in the locked trunk is being "carried", but one in the glovebox is "carried about one's person" or "in his possession".

sccrref · Feb 17, 2009

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SrADaddy wrote:

Alright here it is... I called officer Turner at the Hampton PD and this is what I got..
Carrying on your hip, in a car, is LEGAL, as long as the officer can see it when they APPROACH the vehicle. They must not have to look to see if you have one on you, it should be obvious. If not and your shirt accidentally covers it, you're concealed, seatbelt covers it, concealed... Otherwise, it is just fine, then just to test his knowledge I asked about the open carry into places that serve alcohol and he said "nope, not legal at all. I have never heard of anything passing saying that you have to open carry into restaurants that serve alcohol. It is illegal." Hmmm, makes me want to know if I can believe him about the first thing. The # to Hampton PD is 757-727-6111. He said something else that made me kind of irritated: "This isn't the wild west so you shouldn't be carrying out in the open anyway, it is your right, but I advise against it. We get calls all the time about people carrying in public." That's all folks, I'm strapping up and going to a ride!:lol:

Next time you speak with him, ask him to cite the code that makes it illegal to OC into aplace that serves alcohol for on sight consumption. I bet that he will not be able to.

OC Questions...

leprechaun117

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SrADaddy

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leprechaun117

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crazydude6030

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leprechaun117

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ProShooter

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ProShooter

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Grapeshot

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user

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user

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sccrref

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