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Thread: open carry

  1. #1
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    i am new to the whole oc movement but support it. although i plan to get a concealed weapons permit i still am a little unsure on a few things. can my gun be loaded if i'm oc, and if so can i have it cocked and ready to go.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    blackgunner wrote:
    i am new to the whole oc movement but support it. although i plan to get a concealed weapons permit i still am a little unsure on a few things. can my gun be loaded if i'm oc, and if so can i have it cocked and ready to go.
    If your gun is not loaded, it is less effective that a hammer and you would be better off carrying that hammer. An unloaded gun is virtually useless.

    If by cocked you mean Condition One (cocked and locked for a single action pistol), that's entire up to you and how you wish to carry. Personally I like DAO pistols, believing them to be the safest ones to carry while still being in full battery.

    Supply some more information about your carry weapon of choice and we can offer better advise.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    as of right now i carry a hi- point 380. it's an 8+1 but i only ever have just the 8. i shoot it pretty regularly and clean it almost as often.

    so basically can i legally chamber the first round ?

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    NavyLT wrote:
    There's going to be a bunch of posters that read this that will say you will break off the extractor this way, or wear it down, but I've never had it happen or seen it happen.
    This depends entirely on the handgun and the quality/design of the ejector. There are some pistols that will break about the dozenth or two times you do this. Others will just experience increased wear and never break.

    Most gunsmiths and armorers I know have the opinion that its not a good thing and puts increased stress on the ejector that it normally wouldn't experience.

    As for what you can and cant do....visit http://www.handgunlaw.us for state specific information on what is, and isn't allowed. At the very minimum, you should commit to memory your state law on the subject and any "special" locality statutes that may be in your area.

    Know the laws, carry the laws, follow the laws. You do the OC moment, and whats more, the 2nd amendment rights no good if your carrying dumb and dangerous.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    blackgunner wrote:
    as of right now i carry a hi- point 380. it's an 8+1 but i only ever have just the 8. i shoot it pretty regularly and clean it almost as often.

    so basically can i legally chamber the first round ?
    Yes. Then, if it is double action/single action pistol, decock it and carry it in double action mode, safety on or off (your preference). If it is a single action only pistol, then you would not be able to decock it, but would carry it cocked with the safety on.

    My Taurus PT145 is striker fired and cannot be decocked so I carry it cocked, single action with the safety on.

    Also, something to watch for, is if you chamber the same round from the top of the magazine, that round may end up with the bullet pushed back into the case, called bullet setback, and may result in overpressure if fired. So, rotate the rounds and keep inspecting them to be sure they are not getting shorter.

    Many folks will post on here not to do what I do, but I have never experienced a problem with it:

    Leave the magazine full. Lock the slide back. Drop your extra (+1) bullet in the chamber. I ride the slide forward applying just enough force for the extractor to hop over the rim of the bullet. Then I do a "brass check" by pulling the slide back slightly just enough to watch the round being pulled outof the chamber by the extractor. Let the slide go back forward into full battery, safety on, insert full magazine, ready for carry - unless it is a model that you can decock, then you would decock the gun at this point and ready for carry. Loading the first bullet this way you do not have to be concerned about bullet setback because it is the action of the round pushing against the feed ramp coming out of the magazine that causes the setback.

    There's going to be a bunch of posters that read this that will say you will break off the extractor this way, or wear it down, but I've never had it happen or seen it happen.
    Most of my rounds have done this....and they are already +P to begin with...

    How much should I worry?

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    My rounds are starting to look like an AT&T commercial...


    Sorry for the poor clarity, I used my cell phone as soon as I read your reply.

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    Thanks.

    Yes they are Hornady Taps, +P .45 ACP





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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Yes, I will enter the fray here with some comments about a few of these "techniques".

    Riding the slide is never a good idea. I cannot think of one manufacturer who recommends this and can probably say with confidence that virtually no qualified and knowledgeable instructor would tell someone to do this. In fact, one manufacturer tells you right in their owner's manuals NOT to do something like this. Kahr recommends chambering the first round from a held back and fixed slide which is then just allowed to slam closed into battery.

    Bullet setback is not likely to result in over pressure loads as one might think. I handloaded ammunition for over 30 years and in magnum handgun loads, the powder fills the case right up to the base of the bullet (yes, powder for magnum loads is slower burning than for non-magnum loads). A primary concern with bullet setback is failure to feed or jamming. So yes you should rotate your rounds and not chamber the same round all the time.

    As for carrying a sidearm with a round in the chamber, most definitely you should do this but only when you have trained enough and are comfortable enough to do this safely for yourself and others. The amount of time expended in a crisis situation can be very small and may not leave you with enough of it to chamber a round in order to get your piece into full battery. Carrying it with one in the pipe is the preferred method.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  9. #9
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Yes, I will enter the fray here with some comments about a few of these "techniques".

    Riding the slide is never a good idea. I cannot think of one manufacturer who recommends this and can probably say with confidence that virtually no qualified and knowledgeable instructor would tell someone to do this. In fact, one manufacturer tells you right in their owner's manuals NOT to do something like this. Kahr recommends chambering the first round from a held back and fixed slide which is then just allowed to slam closed into battery.

    Bullet setback is not likely to result in over pressure loads as one might think. I handloaded ammunition for over 30 years and in magnum handgun loads, the powder fills the case right up to the base of the bullet (yes, powder for magnum loads is slower burning than for non-magnum loads). A primary concern with bullet setback is failure to feed or jamming. So yes you should rotate your rounds and not chamber the same round all the time.

    As for carrying a sidearm with a round in the chamber, most definitely you should do this but only when you have trained enough and are comfortable enough to do this safely for yourself and others. The amount of time expended in a crisis situation can be very small and may not leave you with enough of it to chamber a round in order to get your piece into full battery. Carrying it with one in the pipe is the preferred method.

    All I know is this:

    1. I have never had any bullet setback.
    2. I know for a fact that my carry gun is 100% in full battery, ready to fire after loading.
    3. No abnormal wear, breakage, or weakening of the extractor has been seen.
    4. Whether the cause is overpressure from bullet setback, or weakening of neck tension in the round causing the bullet to obstruct the barrel, bullet setback can be a very serious condition:

    http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/setback.html

    I have developed a method of loading my gun and performing redundant checks to ensure with 100% confidence a gun that is in full battery with a properly functioning extractor, a full magazine +1 chambered that reduces the chances of bullet setback to the lowest possible level. Yes, you are correct that the manufacturer does not recommend my method. However, if you followed every manufacturer's caution and recommendation to the letter, shooters would not shoot reloads through about half the pistols manufactured because there are cautions in the owner's manuals, and in some cases statements of voided warranties in the manuals, from using reloaded ammunition.

    Also, btw, when I do instruct new shooters at the range, one of the statements that I make is that motions made when handling the firearm should be made firmly and forcefully. Don't baby the gun, it is made of very strong steel and polymer. The gun is designed and manufactured to handle the forces created from firing, you're not going to break the gun by releasing the slide or slapping the magazine forcefully to ensure full insertion. Under range conditions, where new ammo is loaded and used, I would correct someone for riding the slide as an improper method of loading.

    However, under the condition of preserving the quality of carry ammunition and performing redundant second checks to ensure proper loading of the gun, my method has worked for me 100% of the time and I have no issues with rounds getting shorter over time.
    Understand sir, I was not taking issue with your approach. My intent was to offer some common information along with the idea that any deviaton from the norm is best served by examining a manufacturer's recommendations. Also never hurts to research information on websites and gun periodicals for additional help in these areas. The point being is that we want to convey to new gunowners a sense of safety and respect for their arms and an understanding of both traditional and new approaches to safe handling practices.

    That was the gist of my response. If you have found a technique with which you are comfortable, that serves your needs and wants, and works for you, so much the better and we are happy to hear of it.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    NavyLT wrote:
    under the condition of preserving the quality of carry ammunition and performing redundant second checks to ensure proper loading of the gun, my method has worked for me 100% of the time and I have no issues with rounds getting shorter over time.
    Your method is the same as what I do with my Glock 22 (.40 S&W)... And I've never noticed any abnormal wear on my extractor either.

    Now, I certainly wouldn't let the slid SLAM down onto the round... that COULD damage the extractor, just from the impact, however "gently" pushing the extractor over the rim of the cartridge won't damage the extractor. We're talking about rubbing a brass cartridge with a hardened-steel extractor.

    I DO notice, however, that the rims of my cartridges start to get chewed up after a while - so I still rotate rounds.

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    lildobe wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    under the condition of preserving the quality of carry ammunition and performing redundant second checks to ensure proper loading of the gun, my method has worked for me 100% of the time and I have no issues with rounds getting shorter over time.
    Your method is the same as what I do with my Glock 22 (.40 S&W)... And I've never noticed any abnormal wear on my extractor either.

    Now, I certainly wouldn't let the slid SLAM down onto the round... that COULD damage the extractor, just from the impact, however "gently" pushing the extractor over the rim of the cartridge won't damage the extractor. We're talking about rubbing a brass cartridge with a hardened-steel extractor.

    I DO notice, however, that the rims of my cartridges start to get chewed up after a while - so I still rotate rounds.
    This is exactly what happens when the weapon is fired. No different then pulling the slide back from its held open position then letting it go.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    This is exactly what happens when the weapon is fired. No different then pulling the slide back from its held open position then letting it go.
    No, it's not.

    When the slide strips a round off of the top of the magazine, the rim of the round slides up smoothly BEHIND the extractor along the breach face.

    The extractor does NOT slide over the rim of the round during a normal cycle.

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    Whenever I load my GLOCK, this is what I do.

    1. Fill the magazine with ammo.

    2. Lock the slide to the rear.

    3. Insert the magazine into the weapon.

    4. Grasp the rear of the slide, and ride the first round into the chamber.

    5. Remove magazine, and top off with one more round.

    6. Replace full magazine back into the weapon.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    lildobe wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    This is exactly what happens when the weapon is fired. No different then pulling the slide back from its held open position then letting it go.
    No, it's not.

    When the slide strips a round off of the top of the magazine, the rim of the round slides up smoothly BEHIND the extractor along the breach face.

    The extractor does NOT slide over the rim of the round during a normal cycle.
    Well you got me there. I was thinking (concentrating?) on the slide action and not the extractor.

    My bad, happy for the correction.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    My bad, happy for the correction.
    Always happy to be of service

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    lildobe wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    under the condition of preserving the quality of carry ammunition and performing redundant second checks to ensure proper loading of the gun, my method has worked for me 100% of the time and I have no issues with rounds getting shorter over time.
    Your method is the same as what I do with my Glock 22 (.40 S&W)... And I've never noticed any abnormal wear on my extractor either.

    Now, I certainly wouldn't let the slid SLAM down onto the round... that COULD damage the extractor, just from the impact, however "gently" pushing the extractor over the rim of the cartridge won't damage the extractor. We're talking about rubbing a brass cartridge with a hardened-steel extractor.

    I DO notice, however, that the rims of my cartridges start to get chewed up after a while - so I still rotate rounds.
    I am going to revive this topic if y'all don't mind. And along the way, I suspect I am going to be asked to eat a little crow.

    First I will reiterate that one should always consult their owner's manual for a particular manufacturer's recommendations regarding chambering the first round and thereby putting your piece into full battery. That said, I will now relate what I have started doing just this week with my Glock 23 primary carry sidearm.

    Frequently while sitting at my desk in my study or in the family room watching TV, I will unload my G23 and do a little dry fire practice for trigger discipline. I have done this for years with my different carry guns. However, doing this forces me to rotate rounds so as not to alter bullet seating in the case mouth and also th reduce any potential chance of scarring case rims and thereby affecting extraction. So what I tried was this. Set lock the slide open then insert a magazine either partially or fully loaded into its well. Then I ease the slide forward (yes I know.. that's a slow slide ride) to lock up. It's not such a slow travel that will cause any sort of jam, but it is controlled and held by me the entire way to lockup. Every time I note that the extractor does grip the rim and the slide also moves fully forward. I can prove this by working the slide to eject the round. Anyway, this works with my Glock 23 and I am sure it will work with all of my other Glocks. I doubt it will work with my Kahrs, though.

    So gentlemen, for my carry G23, this seems to work fine and does not stress the bullet-to-case mouth seating. I did find that if I lock the slide back then insert a round into the chamber and ease the slide forward, the extraction does not engage the rim of the case.. and I am not going to force this. I'll just do as I have found works. The acid test will be my next trip to the range where I can try this a few times and follow up with live fire.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    you guys should swap carry ammo every 6 months as the long mark. Imagine taking a can of beer out of the fridge and sitting it on the counter for an hour. it sweats a puddle. Thats what happens to your rounds after carrying through summer and winter. especially after the inevitable days that you legally have to leave your carry weapon in your vehicle because your going into an establishment that serves alcohol, or into your work environment because the company is ignorant, your bullets are gonna sweat. youll be glad to know that nost any conventional ammo will fire just fine at 6 months and youll be happier knowing. try saving a box in the back of your truck or something for a year or two and put em through an XD and watch em fly.



    AS FOR THE SILLIEST QUESTION OF ALL TIME, ABOUT HOW MANY TIMES YOU CAN EXTRACT A ROUND.



    I HAve to ask....If there is any concern as to the ability of your bullet to fire after multiple chamberings and ectractions, why would you put the bullet in ANY positon in your magazine?!!?

    if your so concerned it flawed or defective you should save it for the range and watch it shoot perfectly later. Just for fune chamber it 20 times and random stack it in the mag. HOPE that it fails (it wont) because having it fail would be good practice for the riculously unlikely occasion that there is a FTF or extract.( Assuming your gun is as seet as all Springflield XD's and Glocks.



    LASTLY....... above all of the riculous questioning of STEEL vs BRASS, if your so concerned about damaging the casing, seating or EXTRACTOR ,(ridiculous, the gun slams harder than you think during firing, stop being upsettingly narrow), if your so concerned, tilt the bullet into the extractor manually and slide into the barrel smoothly. own an XD and youll know if you have a chambered round in the extractor by just looking at the gun or toucking the slide!



    BUY AN XD!

  18. #18
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    3timesA_XDowner wrote:
    you guys should swap carry ammo every 6 months as the long mark. Imagine taking a can of beer out of the fridge and sitting it on the counter for an hour. it sweats a puddle. Thats what happens to your rounds after carrying through summer and winter. especially after the inevitable days that you legally have to leave your carry weapon in your vehicle because your going into an establishment that serves alcohol, or into your work environment because the company is ignorant, your bullets are gonna sweat. youll be glad to know that nost any conventional ammo will fire just fine at 6 months and youll be happier knowing. try saving a box in the back of your truck or something for a year or two and put em through an XD and watch em fly.



    AS FOR THE SILLIEST QUESTION OF ALL TIME, ABOUT HOW MANY TIMES YOU CAN EXTRACT A ROUND.



    I HAve to ask....If there is any concern as to the ability of your bullet to fire after multiple chamberings and ectractions, why would you put the bullet in ANY positon in your magazine?!!?

    if your so concerned it flawed or defective you should save it for the range and watch it shoot perfectly later. Just for fune chamber it 20 times and random stack it in the mag. HOPE that it fails (it wont) because having it fail would be good practice for the riculously unlikely occasion that there is a FTF or extract.( Assuming your gun is as seet as all Springflield XD's and Glocks.



    LASTLY....... above all of the riculous questioning of STEEL vs BRASS, if your so concerned about damaging the casing, seating or EXTRACTOR ,(ridiculous, the gun slams harder than you think during firing, stop being upsettingly narrow), if your so concerned, tilt the bullet into the extractor manually and slide into the barrel smoothly. own an XD and youll know if you have a chambered round in the extractor by just looking at the gun or toucking the slide!



    BUY AN XD!
    Here in Virginia, we don't have to leave our guns in our cars when going into an establishment that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises.

    You'll note, sir, that the discussion on this thread was one of offering helping suggestions to the OP who had valid concerns. We try to do this in civil and mature fashion for the most part (at least most of us do). The wording of your (first) post is not likely to garnish a lot of friendly responses as it's less than... friendly.

    BTW, I own an XD... which is why I carry a Glock23.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  19. #19
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    Whenever I load my GLOCK, this is what I do.
    1. Fill the magazine with ammo.
    2. Lock the slide to the rear.
    3. Insert the magazine into the weapon.
    4. Grasp the rear of the slide, and ride the first round into the chamber.
    5. Remove magazine, and top off with one more round.
    6. Replace full magazine back into the weapon.
    I follow the same procedure.

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    younggun20 wrote:
    Whenever I load my GLOCK, this is what I do.
    1. Fill the magazine with ammo.
    2. Lock the slide to the rear.
    3. Insert the magazine into the weapon.
    4. Grasp the rear of the slide, and ride the first round into the chamber.
    5. Remove magazine, and top off with one more round.
    6. Replace full magazine back into the weapon.
    I follow the same procedure.
    I follow a similar procedure for my Dan Wesson 1911. I have heard differing advice on riding the slide forward. Some say let the slide snap forward. Some say ride it forward gently. Both sides seem to be emphatic that their technique is correct and that the other is horribly wrong.

    I let 'er rip. But, I'll admit that I have no expertise that makes my choice the only right one. What do you guys do, and why?

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    eye95 wrote:
    younggun20 wrote:
    Whenever I load my GLOCK, this is what I do.
    1. Fill the magazine with ammo.
    2. Lock the slide to the rear.
    3. Insert the magazine into the weapon.
    4. Grasp the rear of the slide, and ride the first round into the chamber.
    5. Remove magazine, and top off with one more round.
    6. Replace full magazine back into the weapon.
    I follow the same procedure.
    I follow a similar procedure for my Dan Wesson 1911.* I have heard differing advice on riding the slide forward.* Some say let the slide snap forward.* Some say ride it forward gently.* Both sides seem to be emphatic that their technique is correct and that the other is horribly wrong.

    I let 'er rip.* But, I'll admit that I have no expertise that makes my choice the only right one.* What do you guys do, and why?
    Would it be unsafe to place a bullet in the chamber while the slide is locked back, then snap the slide forward before inserting a full magazine? I've done this with my Ruger P95 only while the safety/decocker is on. When I rack the slide, the hammer automatically decocks and puts it on safety. When I dry-run it with the safety off, the hammer stays cocked ready for single action.

  22. #22
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    anyamaboy wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    younggun20 wrote:
    Whenever I load my GLOCK, this is what I do.
    1. Fill the magazine with ammo.
    2. Lock the slide to the rear.
    3. Insert the magazine into the weapon.
    4. Grasp the rear of the slide, and ride the first round into the chamber.
    5. Remove magazine, and top off with one more round.
    6. Replace full magazine back into the weapon.
    I follow the same procedure.
    I follow a similar procedure for my Dan Wesson 1911. I have heard differing advice on riding the slide forward. Some say let the slide snap forward. Some say ride it forward gently. Both sides seem to be emphatic that their technique is correct and that the other is horribly wrong.

    I let 'er rip. But, I'll admit that I have no expertise that makes my choice the only right one. What do you guys do, and why?
    Would it be unsafe to place a bullet in the chamber while the slide is locked back, then snap the slide forward before inserting a full magazine? I've done this with my Ruger P95 only while the safety/decocker is on. When I rack the slide, the hammer automatically decocks and puts it on safety. When I dry-run it with the safety off, the hammer stays cocked ready for single action.
    From what I understand on some pistols (Glock seems to the most popular one I hear it about) locking the slide inserting round in chamber and snapping the slide forward can actually break the extractor. Im not positive just what I hear.

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