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The Heller "Decision"

Sonora Rebel

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I'd not read that before. Interesting. That said... it seems not to matter still in those states and municipalities which still fail to observe the 2A as an individualright 'not infringed' upon. Idiots still write things like HR45 on the public time and money and would shove it up the public ass if they could. I don't think SCotUS will address the 2A again for a long time.
 

shad0wfax

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Sonora Rebel wrote:
I'd not read that before. Interesting. That said... it seems not to matter still in those states and municipalities which still fail to observe the 2A as an individualright 'not infringed' upon. Idiots still write things like HR45 on the public time and money and would shove it up the public ass if they could. I don't think SCotUS will address the 2A again for a long time.

It's highly unlikely that the SCOTUS will hear another 2A case anytime soon. I've read the entire decision on DC vs Heller, including the minority (dissenting) opinion. One interesting point is that Scalia seems to invite a case on the restriction of certain types of weapons to be brought to the court here at the end of the Opinion:

[align=left]
And there will be time enough to expound upon the historical justifications for the exceptions we have mentioned if and when those exceptions come before us.
[/align]
 

AWDstylez

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shad0wfax wrote:
What he's saying there is that the left might try to argue that military weapons should be banned or regulated (which they are under the NFA), and because of that then the prefatory clause of the 2nd amendment is applicable only to the militia and not the individual and therefore the right to keep and bear arms is a collective right and not an individuals right. Therefore Heller has no right to keep and bear arms in DC.


There is a line were he specifically states (in more words or less) that the second amendment cannot protect the use of military weapons like M16's. I wish I could find where I quoted it in the other thread.
 

Felixhead

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I think there is more to the ruling than just 'shall not be infringed". If you read the Heller vs. DC ruling, you will notice thatJustice Scaliais responding ALSO to the desenting Justice Stevens opinion. The desenting Justices based their reasons for a NO vote on the fact that they belived the 2nd amendment is a collective right not a individual one. This is one reason whyit wasaddressed.
 

TatankaGap

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I made the following notes and key quotes from DC v Heller:

NONE OF THIS SHOULD BE TAKEN AS LEGAL ADVICE – BUT FWIW, here are my
personal notes re: DC v Heller : 554 U. S. ____ (June 26, 2008), slip.
opinion:

[5-4; Scalia writing joined by Roberts, Kennedy, Thomas and Alito;
dissenting were Stevens, Souter, Ginsberg and Breyer. New candidates for
the Court will need to be questioned on their position vis a vis gun rights
and Heller in the same way that they are questioned about Roe v. Wade.]

[NB – ‘carry’ must mean open carry – therefore, Texas and all other states
banning open carry have laws that are unconstitutional under DC v Heller
entirely, or to the extent that they are applied to ban open carry.
Restrictions like California’s restriction that the handgun not be loaded
but allowing a mag on the belt, is discussed in dicta at p61-62.]

[Based on this, the only time I won’t feel free to open carry is when it is
not convenient or desirable for me for one reason or another (like I don’t
want to trigger some private business owner to ban firearms on their
property) and when local gun-rights advocates have asked, as someone from
WA/Seattle area did on one thread, that people not open carry where it would
make it more difficult for the locals to protect gun rights. There is still
a desensitization issue that needs to be looked at there.]

at 3:


In interpreting this text, we are guided by the principle that “[t]he
Constitution was written to be under­ stood by the voters; its words and
phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from
technical meaning.” United States v. Sprague, 282 U. S. 716, 731 (1931); see
also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824). Normal meaning may of course
include an idiomatic meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings
that would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the founding
generation.

at 10:

At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” See Johnson
161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Com­ plete Dictionary of the English Language
(1796); 2 Oxford English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford).
When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning that refers to
carrying for a particular purpose— confrontation. In Muscarello v. United
States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of
“carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE GINSBURG wrote
that “urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second
Amendment . . . indicate: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or
in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and
ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another
person.’”

At 19

we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry
weapons in case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed by the
historical background of the Second Amendment. We look to this because it
has always been widely under­ stood that the Second Amendment, like the
First and Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right. The very text of
the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right
and declares only that it “shall not be infringed.” As we said in United
States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “[t]his is not a right
granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon
that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it
shall not be infringed . . . .”

at 20:

See Malcolm 122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “consti­ tuted
the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” Alden
v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715 (1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of
Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Black- stone
136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot possibly be thought to
tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right
of resistance and self- preservation,” id., at 139, and “the right of having
and using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140;


at 21:


A New York article of April 1769 said that “ t is a natural right which
the people have reserved to them­ selves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights,
to keep arms for their own defence.” A Journal of the Times: Mar. 17, New
York Journal, Supp. 1, Apr. 13, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 79 (O.
Dickerson ed. 1936); see also, e.g., Shippen, Boston Gazette, Jan. 30, 1769,
in 1 The Writings of Samuel Adams 299 (H. Cushing ed. 1968). They under­
stood the right to enable individuals to defend themselves. As the most
important early American edition of Black­ stone’s Commentaries (by the law
professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the
notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right
of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force”
when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent
an injury.” 1 Black­ stone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803)
(hereinafter Tucker’s Blackstone). See also W. Duer, Outlines of the
Constitutional Jurisprudence of the United States 31–32 (1833).

At 22:

Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right
of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___
(2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of
citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read
the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any
purpose. Before turning to limitations upon the individual right, however,
we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment
comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

At 24:

First, of course, it is useful in repelling invasions and suppressing
insurrections. Second, it renders large standing armies unnecessary—an
argument that Alexan­ der Hamilton made in favor of federal control over the
militia. The Federalist No. 29, pp. 226, 227 (B. Wright ed. 1961) (A.
Hamilton). Third, when the able-bodied men of a nation are trained in arms
and organized, they are better able to resist tyranny.


At 25:

During the 1788 ratification debates, the fear that the federal government
would disarm the people in order to impose rule through a standing army or
select militia was pervasive in Antifederalist rhetoric.

At 26:

It was understood across the political spectrum that the right helped to
secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might be necessary to oppose an
oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.


At 33:

St. George Tucker’s version of Blackstone’s Commentaries, as we explained
above, conceived of the Blackstonian arms right as necessary for
self-defense. He equated that right, absent the religious and class-based
restrictions, with the Second Amendment. See 2 Tucker’s Blackstone 143. In
Note D, entitled, “View of the Constitution of the United States,” Tucker
elaborated on the Second Amend­ ment: “This may be considered as the true
palladium of liberty . . . . The right to self-defence is the first law of
nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine the
right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are
kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any
colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already
annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.” 1 id., at App. 300 (ellipsis
in original).

At 35:

Rawle further said that the Second Amendment right ought not “be abused to
the disturbance of the public peace,” such as by assembling with other armed
individuals “for an unlawful purpose”—

at 35

Story explained that the English Bill of Rights had also included a “right
to bear arms,” a right that, as have discussed, had nothing to do with
militia service.

At 36:

In addition, in a shorter 1840 work Story wrote: “One of the ordinary modes,
by which tyrants accomplish their purposes with­ out resistance, is, by
disarming the people, and making it an offence to keep arms, and by
substituting a regular army in the stead of a resort to the militia.” A
Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States §450 (reprinted
in 1986).

At 36:

Antislavery advocates routinely invoked the right to bear arms for
self-defense. Joel Tiffany, for example, citing Blackstone’s description of
the right, wrote that “the right to keep and bear arms, also implies the
right to use them if necessary in self defence; without this right to use
the guaranty would have hardly been worth the paper it consumed.”

At 39:

An 1829 decision by the Supreme Court of Michi­ gan said: “The constitution
of the United States also grants to the citizen the right to keep and bear
arms. But the grant of this privilege cannot be construed into the right in
him who keeps a gun to destroy his neighbor. No rights are intended to be
granted by the constitution for an unlawful or unjustifiable purpose.”
United States v. Sheldon, in 5 Transactions of the Supreme Court of the
Territory of Michigan 337, 346 (W. Blume ed. 1940) (here­ inafter Blume).

At 39:

In Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 251 (1846), the Georgia Supreme Court construed
the Second Amendment as protecting the “natural right of self-defence” and
therefore struck down a ban on carrying pistols openly. Its opinion
perfectly captured the way in which the operative clause of the Second
Amendment furthers the purpose announced

at 40:

Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana
Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is
the right guar­ anteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which
is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if
necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages
and unmanly assassinations.”

At 46:

“As the Constitution of the United States, and the constitutions of several
of the states, in terms more or less comprehensive, declare the right of the
people to keep and bear arms, it has been a subject of grave dis­ cussion,
in some of the state courts, whether a statute prohibiting persons, when not
on a journey, or as travellers, from wearing or carrying concealed weap-
ons, be constitutional. There has been a great differ­ ence of opinion on
the question.” 2 J. Kent, Commen­ taries on American Law *340, n. 2 (O.
Holmes ed., 12th ed. 1873) (hereinafter Kent).

At 46:

No doubt, a citizen who keeps a gun or pistol under judicious pre­ cautions,
practices in safe places the use of it, and in due time teaches his sons to
do the same, exercises his individual right. No doubt, a person whose
residence or duties involve peculiar peril may keep a pistol for prudent
self-defence.” B. Abbott, Judge and Jury: A Popular Explanation of the
Leading Topics in the Law of the Land 333 (1880) (hereinafter Abbott).

At 47:

“The right to bear arms has always been the dis­ tinctive privilege of
freemen. Aside from any neces­ sity of self-protection to the person, it
represents among all nations power coupled with the exercise of a certain
jurisdiction. . . . t was not necessary that the right to bear arms
should be granted in the Constitu­ tion, for it had always existed.” J.
Ordronaux, Consti­ tutional Legislation in the United States 241–242 (1891).

At 47-48:

We described the right protected by the Second Amendment as “‘bearing arms
for a lawful purpose’”22 and said that “the people [must] look for their
protection against any violation by their fellow- citizens of the rights it
recognizes” to the States’ police power. 92 U. S., at 553.


At 49-50:

United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939) - the type of weapon at issue
was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: “In the absence of any
evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [short­ barreled
shotgun] at this time has some reasonable rela­ tionship to the preservation
or efficiency of a well regu­ lated militia, we cannot say that the Second
Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instru- ment.” 307
U. S., at 178 (emphasis added). “Certainly,” the Court continued, “it is
not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary
military equip­ ment or that its use could contribute to the common de­
fense.” Ibid. Beyond that, the opnation of the content of the right.


This holding is not only consistent with, but positively suggests, that the
Second Amendment confers an individ­ ual right to keep and bear arms (though
only arms that “have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or
efficiency of a well regulated militia”).


At 52:

We think that Miller’s “ordinary military equipment” language must be read
in tandem with what comes after: “[O]rdinarily when called for [militia]
service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by
themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179.
The traditional militia was formed from a pool of men bringing arms “in
common use at the time” for lawful purposes like self-defense. “In the
colonial and revolu­ tionary war era, [small-arms] weapons used by
militiamen and weapons used in defense of person and home were one and the
same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614 P. 2d 94, 98 (1980)

At 53:

We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not
protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for
lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns.


At 54-55:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not
unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and
courts rou­ tinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and
carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever
purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153;
Abbott 333. For exam­ ple, the majority of the 19th-century courts to
consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons
were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State
v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see
generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G.
Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical
analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our
opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the
possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding
the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government
buildings, or laws impos­ ing conditions and qualifications on the
commercial sale of arms.26

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and
carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons
protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We
think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradi­ tion of
prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.”


At 55-56:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military
service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment
right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said,
the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s
ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who
would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to
militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective
as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are
highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of
small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the
fact that modern developments have lim­ ited the degree of fit between the
prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of
the right.


At 57-58:

It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have
considered the handgun to be the quintessen­ tial self-defense weapon.
There are many reasons that a citizen may prefer a handgun for home defense:
It is easier to store in a location that is readily accessible in an emer­
gency; it cannot easily be redirected or wrestled away by an attacker; it is
easier to use for those without the upper- body strength to lift and aim a
long gun; it can be pointed at a burglar with one hand while the other hand
dials the police. Whatever the reason, handguns are the most popu­ lar
weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home, and a complete
prohibition of their use is invalid.


At 58:

We must also address the District’s requirement (as applied to respondent’s
handgun) that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable at all
times. This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core lawful
purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitu­ tional. The District argues
that we should interpret this element of the statute to contain an exception
for self- defense.

At 61-62:

A broader point about the laws that JUSTICE BREYER cites: All of them
punished the discharge (or loading) of guns with a small fine and forfeiture
of the weapon (or in a few cases a very brief stay in the local jail), not
with sig­ nificant criminal penalties.29 They are akin to modern penalties
for minor public-safety infractions like speeding or jaywalking. And
although such public-safety laws may not contain exceptions for
self-defense, it is inconceivable that the threat of a jaywalking ticket
would deter someone from disregarding a “Do Not Walk” sign in order to flee
an attacker, or that the Government would enforce those laws under such
circumstances. Likewise, we do not think that a law imposing a 5-shilling
fine and forfeiture of the gun would have prevented a person in the founding
era from using a gun to protect himself or his family from violence, or that
if he did so the law would be enforced against him.

At 63:

A constitutional guarantee subject to future judges’ assessments of its
usefulness is no constitutional guarantee at all. Constitutional rights are
enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people
adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes) even future judges
think that scope too broad. We would not apply an “interest-balancing”
approach to the prohibi­ tion of a peaceful neo-Nazi march through Skokie.
See National Socialist Party of America v. Skokie, 432 U. S. 43 (1977) (per
curiam). The First Amendment contains the freedom-of-speech guarantee that
the people ratified, which included exceptions for obscenity, libel, and
disclo­ sure of state secrets, but not for the expression of ex­ tremely
unpopular and wrong-headed views. The Second Amendment is no different. Like
the First, it is the very product of an interest-balancing by the
people—which JUSTICE BREYER would now conduct for them anew. And whatever
else it leaves to future evaluation, it surely elevates above all other
interests the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in
defense of hearth and home.

At 63:

But since this case represents this Court’s first in-depth examination of
the Second Amend­ ment, one should not expect it to clarify the entire
field, any more than Reynolds v. United States, 98 U. S. 145 (1879), our
first in-depth Free Exercise Clause case, left that area in a state of utter
certainty. And there will be time enough to expound upon the historical
justifications for the exceptions we have mentioned if and when those
exceptions come before us.

At 64:

In sum, we hold that the District’s ban on handgun possession in the home
violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any
lawful fire­ arm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate
self-defense. Assuming that Heller is not disqualified from the exercise of
Second Amendment rights, the Dis­ trict must permit him to register his
handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home.

[NB – apparently, the requirement that a license be required and renewed
annually for a firearm in the home was not examined by the Court.]



at 64:



But the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain
policy choices off the table. These include the absolute prohibi­ tion of
handguns held and used for self-defense in the home. Undoubtedly some think
that the Second Amend­ment is outmoded in a society where our standing army
is the pride of our Nation, where well-trained police forces provide
personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is
perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of
this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct.


[NB – the Second Amendment may be changed only by a Constitutional
Amendment.]

[END MAJORITY OPINION]

[My own belief is that the Dissent is irrelevant as it is highly unlikely to
be espoused by any new Justices that come onto the Court in the foreseeable
future.]

:dude:
 

shad0wfax

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AWDstylez wrote:
There is a line were he specifically states (in more words or less) that the second amendment cannot protect the use of military weapons like M16's. I wish I could find where I quoted it in the other thread.
The M-16 is mentioned one time in the entireOpinion (majority decision), in the quote I cited. You can do a search in the official decision I linked to on the .gov website and search the pdf for yourself if you like.

Here's another quote:
The term was applied, then as now, to weapons thatwere not specifically designed for military use and werenot employed in a military capacity. For instance, Cunningham’s legal dictionary gave as an example of usage:"Servants and labourers shall use bows and arrows on Sundays, &c. and not bear other arms." See also, e.g., An Act for the trial of Negroes, 1797 Del. Laws ch. XLIII, §6,

[align=justify]p. 104, in 1 First Laws of the State of Delaware 102, 104 [/align]
(J. Cushing ed. 1981 (pt. 1)); see generally State v. Duke, 42 Tex. 455, 458 (1874) (citing decisions of state courts construing "arms"). Although one founding-era thesauruslimited "arms" (as opposed to "weapons") to "instrumentsof offence generally made use of in war," even that source stated that all firearms constituted "arms." 1 J. Trusler, The Distinction Between Words Esteemed Synonymous in the English Language 37 (1794) (emphasis added).


A far more interesting quote is what Scalia says about the Miller SCOTUS decision. Scalia is actually citing Miller and inferring that weapons that serve a military purpose are expressly permitted and that the short-barreled shotgun Miller was carrying was not a military weapon and therefore the 2nd amendment did not apply. This actually makes a case forthe legality of the M-16 specifically since it is a military weapon and therefore protected by the 2A...

Here's the citation:

Nothing so clearly demonstrates the weakness of JUSTICE STEVENS’ case. Miller
did not hold that and cannot possibly be read to have held that. The judgmentin the case upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men’s federal indictment for transporting an unregistered short-barreled shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236. It is entirely clear that the Court’s basis for saying that the Second Amendment did not apply was not that the defendants were "bear[ing] arms" not "for . . . military purposes" but for "nonmilitary use," post, at 2. Rather, it was that the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [shortbarreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment


[align=justify]guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument." 307 U. S., at 178 (emphasis added). "Certainly,"the Court continued, "it is not within judicial notice thatthis weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense." Ibid. Beyond that, the opinion provided no explanation of the content of the right.[/align]
This holding is not only consistent with, but positively suggests, that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms (though only arms that "have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia").

[...]

We may as well consider at this point (for we will have to consider eventually) [font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"][font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"]what
types of weapons [font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"][font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"]Miller
[/font]permits. Read in isolation, [font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"][font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"]Miller’[/font][/font]s phrase "part of ordinary military equipment" could mean that only thoseweapons useful in warfare are protected. That would be a startling reading of the opinion, since it would mean that the National Firearms Act’s restrictions on machineguns (not challenged in [font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"][font="Century Schoolbook,Century Schoolbook"]Miller[/font][/font]) might be unconstitutional,machineguns being useful in warfare in 1939.




Nowhere else in the entire SCOTUS Opinion (majority decision) is the word M-16 used or the word "military" used in context with military weapons. Scalia never made a case against the use of military weapons, he actually infers that the NFA of 1934 may be unconstitutional based on the language in the Miller decision...! (He specifically mentions that it was not challenged in Miller, because of the narrow scope of the Miller case.)

Read the decision carefully and make sure you read everything in context. There are alot of footnotes at the bottom of each page which must be read in tandem with the opinion to understand the arguments Scalia and the other justices are making. Taking bits and pieces of their quotes out of context can drastically change the meaning, such as where Scalia quotes Stephens' dissenting opinion; if you don't read the text refuting Stephens' opinion and the footnotes that coincide with that text, it may sound like Scalia is making an anti-2A case when he's not.

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user

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GaryR56 wrote:
...the Supreme Court has absolutely no right or power to even consider any modifications to the Constitution. Period. The Constitution is the overriding law of the land and the Supreme Court's job - their only legitimate function - is to interpret legal cases as to whether the laws in question either violate the Constitution or not. Many people have the mistaken idea that the Supreme Court is empowered to "interpret" the Constitution as they see fit. In fact, the duty of the Court is to determine whether all laws are in accordance with the Constitution, which, again, is the supreme law of the land. So, again, the Supreme Court had no legal right or jurisdiction to tell us what the Second Amendment means ...

Here's a good example of romantic idealism at work. Since the founding of the United States, people involved in the government thereof have been moving inch by inch to increase the power and imperial might of the United States. Everybody wants more power and those in charge of a government want that government to have more power, since they "are" the government.

But I have to wonder where you went to high school? You missed some pivotal moments and people. How about Marbury v. Madison, in which the Sup. Ct. stated that the Constitution belongs to the United States and that, as the final arbiters of federal law, the Sup. Ct. gets to say what it means, regardless of what it says. What about Abraham Lincoln who militarily invaded South Carolina in order to take over the Constitution by right of conquest (the war was over who gets to decide what "property" is under the Constitution, the U.S. or the states)? How about F.D.R.? John F. Kennedy? W.J.Clinton?

I think that talking about "should" and "ought" is ok, but some folks are living in the wrong century if they think that "should" and "ought" are the same as "is".
 

Sonora Rebel

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SCotUS cannot interpret anything that is not brought before them to decide... and that's usually after a LONG trip thru the lower courts. 'Some Yahoo Congress wonk submits a Bill 'clearly' unconstitutional... but it might get passed anyway. If it's never challenged... it's law. It's law 'til it's overturned. That sucks... but that's how it works. 'Save a lotta time and money to just pass these ideas thru a 'legal review' beforehand... but the moonbats who write some of this stuff are not 'honorable men' to begin with. They know damn good 'n well their proposals are unconstitutional, but they do it anyway.

It's not about the Constitution... or the people... or the nation... it's about their 'agenda'. If these posers ran for office under their true colors they'd never get elected in the first place. Then again... the 'electorate' has been deliberately dumbed down so much that most of 'em dunno the difference anyway. We... most of us who 'joined' this forum, are more aware of what actual 'Rights' are than most. Otherwise I don't reckon we'd be here.
 

wrightme

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Here is a link to the final post in a long "discussion" that culminated in a DC v Heller parse.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=20662&forum_id=65&jump_to=353968#p353968

I do not agree with the viewpoint presented by AWD, and in my post at the link above, I point out the specifics of this exact part of the DC v Heller decision.


I believe that much of the confusion about this particular point wrtmilitary weaponry centers around two definitions that are a bit ambiguous when attempting to place them into context with any supposed limits on firearm (or weapon) type that may or may not be covered under the 2nd Amendment;specifically, the missing definition for “dangerous and unusual weapons,"and a reference to "sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large."


The specific of "dangerous and unusual weapons" is left hanging without clarification by SCOTUS.

The specific of "sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large" is immediately followed by references to tanks and bombers, and such weaponry required to counter those implements of combat. An M-16 on full auto does not qualify as weaponry required to take on a tank or a bomber.
 

wrightme

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Sonora Rebel wrote:
SCotUS cannot interpret anything that is not brought before them to decide... and that's usually after a LONG trip thru the lower courts. 'Some Yahoo Congress wonk submits a Bill 'clearly' unconstitutional... but it might get passed anyway. If it's never challenged... it's law. It's law 'til it's overturned. That sucks... but that's how it works. 'Save a lotta time and money to just pass these ideas thru a 'legal review' beforehand... but the moonbats who write some of this stuff are not 'honorable men' to begin with. They know damn good 'n well their proposals are unconstitutional, but they do it anyway.

It's not about the Constitution... or the people... or the nation... it's about their 'agenda'. If these posers ran for office under their true colors they'd never get elected in the first place. Then again... the 'electorate' has been deliberately dumbed down so much that most of 'em dunno the difference anyway. We... most of us who 'joined' this forum, are more aware of what actual 'Rights' are than most. Otherwise I don't reckon we'd be here.
+ up on this. This is the unfortunate reality of our legislative process. It is a law, whether or not it passes Constitutional muster.

The fallacy that happens is that such (possibly unconstitutional) laws are frequently called to for support of claims of constitutionality. "There is a law against it, sothe lawMUST be Constitutional." No, it is not defined with respect to constitutionality until it is presented to SCOTUS for review.
 
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