Comments Needed Now re Wild Wild Allis Blog

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This idiot leftie thinks that he just put his gun on to plant the tree.
He can't concieve that the gun is always on, and he just happened to
be planting a tree that day.

It must be nice to live where the dogs running loose respect private property.
Your neighbors don't have pet monkeys, and imigration stops the gangs at the border.

If you are breathing then you need to be carrying, if you aren't you need to make
sure your next of kin are carrying before you go.

I wil OC carry in my coffin at the funeral home, haven't decided if I will take it with me yet,
or let the child have it afterwards.

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SlackwareRobert wrote:

I wil OC carry in my coffin at the funeral home, haven't decided if I will take it with me yet,
or let the child have it afterwards.

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I would think that all depends on where you expect to end up...

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ccwtrainer wrote:

SlackwareRobert wrote:

I wil OC carry in my coffin at the funeral home, haven't decided if I will take it with me yet,
or let the child have it afterwards.

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I would think that all depends on where you expect to end up...

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I doubt guns are allowed in hell. They would just disrupt the tyranny. Cant have the slaves demanding human rights and all that.

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Reasons I O.C. in my yard ?
Because I can.

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SlackwareRobert wrote:

I wil OC carry in my coffin at the funeral home, haven't decided if I will take it with me yet,
or let the child have it afterwards.

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Fine idea I intend to let my wife know that right now... She gave me a funny look as if I really had to tell her that.

ccwtrainer-

I have to disagree about Jimmy D and him fighting for anything; except his best interests, higher taxes and the soon to be toll roads. The only way that guy will get any thanks out of me is if he leaves office early, and if he dose I will help him pack. But that is just my 2 cents..

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FLR72 wrote:

ccwtrainer-

I have to disagree about Jimmy D and him fighting for anything; except his best interests, higher taxes and the soon to be toll roads. The only way that guy will get any thanks out of me is if he leaves office early, and if he dose I will help him pack. But that is just my 2 cents..

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FLR72 you must admit JD did some serious are arm twisting to sustain his two vetos on the PPA's passed by the legislature by almost a 2:1 majority. He said such laws don't make much sense to him.

From that, we can take his statement to mean he likes things the way they are in Wisconsin, constitutional open carry. Let's give him the credit and see then what happens next.

How well do you think hewould like to be given all the credit for 100,000 or maybe 200,000 people walking around all over Wisconsin openly carrying their guns?The public was given the impressionthat he was keeping all guns (not just concealed guns) off the street.We're just correcting that little misunderstanding.

Get the point now?

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Ccwtrainer-



I have to say I do not know what exactly you are referring to when you say PPA’s, so I cannot comment on that.



However the two veto’s I do remember are when Jimmy shot down CCW in this state, not to mention the many anti gun stunts he has tried to pull. (It’s like an arsonist being called a hero for calling the fire department, a murderer being called a responsible citizen for calling the morgue) So to kick the hornets nest on the ground; his comment during a press conference means nothing and has done nothing to help any law abideing citizen O.C. in the S.E. Wisconsin with out fear of arrest. Let’s see Jimmy speak out on his own with out being asked a direct question or go to bat for a few of the guys who have been unlawfully arrested for O.C. (Are those crickets I hear) And I assure you we as a group here don’t know about a quarter of the O.C. arrests that go on in the state.



Having had an O.C. discussion with a few police acquaintances last week I was, in no uncertain terms, guaranteed an arrest for O.C. And if in nine or so months I was to get my gun back it would not be in working order upon its return. (Good record keeping practices dictate they stamp the case number in the side until the slide and or barrel is bent.)



So it is quite obvious the only time Jimmy would want any credit for O.C. or the legal possession of any gun is if he were campaigning to a bunch of pseudo wannabe shooters/ hunters or if he were referring to the O.C. of his state police body guards while attending a no questions asked gun buy back.



So no I ,and many others, don’t get the point.

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PPA =Personal Protection Act. That is what the bills were called rather than CCW bills.

You may want to continue your conversation with your police officer friends. If they arrest for OC they are making a false arrest as it is not illegal. Also, if the department damages your firearm they are liable. They have no right to damage private property. No offense but your officer friends sound like bullies acting under color of law, the worst type of officers.

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In some jurisdictions the police are immune to damages as from warrant service, I imagine from damage to evidence also.

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FLR72:

ccwtrainer is right on this one. Doyle has been one of our moreimportant spokespersons concerning open carry. Two notable instances are in the Hamdan case when he was a member of the prosecution team as attorney general and March 2007 in Lake Delton where he was credited with the "wear it on your hip" quotation. In Hamdan his team shouted loud and clear that it did not consider open carry unlawful. It is true, he vetoed the Personal Protection Act (CCW) two times and in my opinion he did us a service in doing so. The PPA was filled with so many concession to buy votes that it was next to useless. I have correspondence with Gunderson and Zein to back up that claim. After eight years of fighting to get the PPA passed the sponsors were willing to give any concessions needed to get passage on the hopes that it latercould be changed (Of course once a bill is "on the books" you play hell to get it changed). In my opinion a bad bill is worse than no bill. Whether by intention or not, Doyle did us a favor. His position while vetoeing the PPA was not to demonstrate an anti-gun positionso much as to say he objects to concealed carry of weapons. The wording was carefully constructed so that it appeared to satisfy both sides of the issue. I am not a fan of Doyle's. I disagree with many of the things he has done while governor. His position on open carry is not one of them.

In regards to your officer contacts on the issue of open carry. Prrint out a copy of the fine blow by blow article Richard Moore (Lakeland Times) published concerningjudge Murphy's ruling on the Brad Krause case. Links to it are posted on this forum. Ask them their opinion again once they have read it.

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Ok guys first I would not call the cops I know friends, I did use the word acquaintance and that is exactly what they are. Second the fact is if they, or any other cop, see anyone walking down the street (city of Milwaukee) carrying a gun that person will go to jail; the cops have no choice those are there orders no discretion is allowed on there part on this matter. The city of Milwaukee dose not want anyone to O.C. Finally I wouldn’t call the cops I know bullies, trust me if I thought they were I would say so also I would not associate with them at all.



I won’t discuss in depth the laws and what exactly they contain as most of it is beyond my knowledge base, especially amongst some of you, and I have learned to trust the facts some of you state. If ccwtrainer is right ok I did not mean to imply he/ she is wrong but only he/ she is definitely and infinitely more fond of Jimmy than I. (sorry ccwtrainer I mean no offence by saying he/she I just don’t know witch is appropriate) Jimmy may have said and done a few things that are pro gun or pro O.C. but in my eyes it falls far short of anything deserving applause and is outweighed by the other anti gun stunts he has supported and tried. Lammie I just don’t give that much weight to the “press conference” answer sorry. As for the trial I will try and read up on it this week.



So understand in my eyes spirited and intelligent discussion, like this, makes us smarter and better people. I don’t mean to belittle anyone (Except Jimmy) or call anyone’s opinion wrong. (Except Jimmy)



Now its time for me to go and make big stick go boom!!! Good day gents.

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Unfortunately, Lammie, all the policemen that I know personallyalso feel the same way, and noarticle written by some "mere lay person" would change that. It would simply anger them and we'd have to watch while the blue wall goes up. Many (if not all) have been trained that OC is DC, and no offense intended to those who do not fit this mold, but law enforcement doesn't exactly draw the best and brightest in society, so I doubt many could be made to understand some of these basic principles we discuss all the time, especially given their professional disincentive to apply them (so they've been taught, at least, I think police have a vested interest in good people being armed all the time and everywhere).

I don't blame the cops - most just want to help their community, they are told to do a job, given immunity from their own decisions to a great degree (much is systemic immunity, not legal immunity), and they simply follow procedures and practices as they are handed down.

Think about this - if Mi Lai hadn't been prosecuted properly (individual soldiers are responsible for following illegal orders) the military would still operate this way. Until we get a nationwide law enforcement "Mi Lai," so to speak, these officers are all in great danger of legal (or physical - let's be serious here, Brad would have been legally justified in repelling anarmed and illegal entry with lethal force, though talk like that even makes conservatives nervous)ramifications for "simply doing their jobs." We need to approach the law enforcement community from that perspective: "Do you realize that by doing this you are losing your legal immunities and can be held liable in criminal or civil court? Do you realize that by preemptively employing lethal force before you have been threatened with the same, thatyoucould bejustifying your own shooting death?"

As I said though, the systemic deference to LEOs in the court system is a big problem, and one of the reasons I find authoritarian conservatism just as distasteful as modern liberalism. Also, many people take my views on this to be "anti-cop" or "anti-law-and-order," but I think that I advocate in a very real sense for LEOs by voicing my concerns about administrative policy being used to usurp the State Constitution.

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Rick Finsta:

Apparently you didn't read the article I referred to. I wouldn't call Richard Moore a mere "lay person". He is an investigative reporter that tells it like it is. His article details everything that went on at Krause's hearing. It is nearly a transcript of the hearing and makes a number of direct quotes from the judge himself. If your cop acquaintences put up a "blue wall' and get upset at the words in the article then they will have to get upset at judge Murphy and his interpretation of the law. The law the police are sworn to uphold, not get upset with some, as you would call him,mere lay person as Mr. Moore.

I have law enforcement people as family members. In more cases than not. Being a cop is not all about law and order and saving the common man from the forces of evil. Fortunately some take their job seriously and do have a strong feeling of community service, we have some as members of this forum and we much respect their contribution. In too many cases the interest in being a "cop" is the feeling of power and authority. Additionaly they deal 24/7 with the lowest level of our society. In a short period of time they develop a mind set that all of society is unworthy of trust. They lose sight of the fact that 90% of us mean them no harm and will assist them in any way we can. They develop a mind set that all guns in the hands of anybody other than a cop are instuments of death. They get almost traumatized by themind set thatthere are millions of guns out there, all pointed in their direction.The fact that with the thousands of law enforcement officers in the country only 45 were killed in the line of duty last year is of little comfort. Of the 45 killed in the line of duty, 30 were killed by automobile. So even though the risk of being shot while on duty is far less than being killed in a car wreck the gun still remains the spectre of death. Police with that mind set will never change until forced to change.

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Rick Lammie –



Both good points.



I am going to state my understanding of how things work in Milwaukee. (They may be different in your neck of the woods, and I hope they are.) An officer may be allowed to use his/her “discretion” on some matters like speeding, running a stop sign or some other minor offences. But the higher powers have dictated that a D.O. with all of the trimmings is the course of action for O.C. no exceptions no way; and to the officers the law is what the sergeant or captain says it is period. I assure you Milwaukee is not the only place that operates like this. That is why I feel if Jimmy really believed in O.C. he could make a difference by making a strong statement or endorsement or even sick the A.G. on city’s that have this type of policy towards O.C., but he has not and will not do that and why would he?

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Lammie-

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood; I was being flippant by referring to any of us as "lay people," to carry my point that this is how many in law enforcement see us: as people who just don't get it, can't get it, or won't get it. I agree with you 100% that the current state of law enforcement destroys many men who set out with good intentions. I have a family member who is a perfect example of this. This is why I think that while LEOs having a stake in their community and building long-term relationships with citizens in a certain area is a great idea, I think that rotation of officers from district to district (or the elimination of police departments and reinstitution of sheriff departments only) could be a way to stop this from happening. When you see the dregs of society day in and day out, it can only be natural to form psychological defense mechanisms to cope, and I think this is what happens. (IANAP - I Am Not A Psychologist? ) Oh, and let's not even get into the concept of malum prohibitum, which makes many benign things of great interest (financially and politically) to LE entities.

When you look at nails all day long, eventually you starting hitting screws with your hammer?


And FLR72, you are correct; Milwaukee Police Officers are EXPLICITLY taught in the academy the OC=DC. I have been told this directly by several graduates, including one top-of-the-class individual.

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i live in Milwaukee with 2 cops living in the same neighborhood..
both of them are supporters of OC and have told me that they would not give a DC ticket for that.. but couldnt speak for everyone in the uniform.

both have seen me OC in my yard (i live close to a school so i make sure to STAY in my yard) and they both noticed it on my hip. one asked if i was carrying.. and the other asked to see it.. both are very up to date on the OC cases..( i talk with them all the time about it) i guess it depends on what type of cop you are talking to. as neither of them are "normal" beat cops.. one is a detective in street crimes and the other is administrative.. but they have both said that it is unfortunate that people are getting DC for carrying a legal firearm..

im not saying that the entire force is like this (i know its not) but at least a few cops know whats going on.. personally i think it has to do with the fact that they dont want to get called on a gun and get nothing...

just trying to put things in light here.. i havent heard of anyone in the academy being told that OC = DC.. but i can see why some might think so.. they teach you that GUN=BAD but dont get into when that is.. if someone is pointing a gun at you.. then yeah.. but if its holstered? they dont teach you that part in the academy.. (this is what i have heard from LEO friends)

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Rick Finsta wrote:

When you look at nails all day long, eventually you starting hitting screws with your hammer?

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I believe the saying is "When all you do is hit nails with your hammer all day long, everything begins to look like a nail."

But your point hits the nail right on the head (pun intended).

LEOs are a Fraternal Order in the strictest sense of the word "Fraternity". Including but not limited to The Fraternal order of Police as one of the most extreme examples.
<<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_Order_of_Police>>

Some claim they are a collective to the point of being a subculture.
<<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subculture>>

Both fraternities and subcultures lend themselves to the prevalent and often self perpetrating belief that, for there to be an "us", there must also be a "them" and anyone who is not categorically "us" is therefor "them". What most of these systems fail to understand is the relativity of people, and in their attempt to keep things nice and neat, and safe, they discount the idea that their may be an "other" or even several "others".

Categorization and labeling of individuals and groups is as old as time itself. Its one of the things that helps the emotion driven human to stay sane in day to day life of forced socialization. To know from moment to moment who you can trust, and when and why is a very powerful thing. So powerful at times, that within the "us", they can begin to believe that only the "us" can be trusted at all, and in so surrendering to that comfortable belief, they can loose all together to ability to recognize the only fraternity that truly matters at all, the "We".

We the people...

"If you have forgotten the "We", than you have likewise forgotten the people, and if your job is suppose to be serving the people, how then can you serve what you have forgotten exists?" ~FMCDH~

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I like to check this site, just to what the LEO's are reading.

http://www.spartancops.com/about/

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skamp - Perhaps I've given my family members too much credit, and what they heard as explicit in the academy was actually born of their bias... I only know what I have been told. It's always encouraging to hear about LEOs who see through the politics, it's just sad to know that they have little recourse if they are punished for following through on their beliefs in the line of duty. Unfortunately I think many of these are the exception, rather than the rule, in many areas. In Ozaukee County, for instance, our Sheriff is vehemently anti-carry, and many people forget that the "law-and-order" authoritarian conservatives are worse on some of these issues than liberals. That said, vote Darcy McManus for Circuit Court Judge in April!

FMCDH - I knowthe proper adage, I was just trying to be clever....

Good conversation! It's very good to know that I'm not the only one noticing these behaviors and trends, and I think it's very healthy to address such things in a public forum.

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Doug Huffman wrote:

In some jurisdictions the police are immune to damages as from warrant service, I imagine from damage to evidence also.

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this is where a high point becomes a great OC tool disposable OC WI guns:lol: