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Thread: National Guard training in Iowa -weapons dealers

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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    This is some scary stuff right here!!!

    Why is the military training for police work??????



    http://www.carrollspaper.com/main.as...ArticleID=7451
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    National guard are the organization who I'd think would handle a call for a state of emergency. I'm not sure if Iowa has in their books a law against confiscation of firearms during a state of emergency. I think the training would be overall good.

    Scenario in my mind, bad terrorist weapons dealer arms people to overthrow the government in to anarchy, NG moves in and puts a stop to it.

    I don't think the training was meant to be of anti-firearm in nature.

    Also, tbh, this has to do more with psychological training as well not only for the NG but for the people as well. They want to see how people will react, and Arcadia is a town under 500.

    Would you rather have an accidental/negligent discharge from a guardsman made out of fear?

    The same reason many people on this forum enroll in tactical training using carbine, self defense, etc. We all have a right to make sure we are safe, as does the government needs to make sure they're acted properly.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Because Posse Comitatus is dead and the fed.gov needs to know who they can count on to rat out neighbors who may resist martial law (aka "domestic terrorists") so that any patriot rebellion can be quelled.

    On the other side of this coin, I have been discussing this with members of other pro-gun sites and some of them think it is excellent that the government is giving us such a head's up. Several of them (including the renowned Alex Jones) are intending to visit the "test run" in order to film and possibly encumber the operation.

    We can learn as much from them as they can from us if we use the information correctly.

    Of course, if the governor of Iowa would instruct HIS GUARD not to obey this illegal federal order and unfathomably invasive military operation inside his state, it would send a VERY CLEAR MESSAGE to Washington: If you want to try and confiscate weapons, you do it with your own troops. Mine are going to be busy defending Iowa's citizens against usurpation of the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic.

    Ever since Bush, Sr. nationalized the Guard it's been downhill. It may be time for the states' militias to reform.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    ""In addition to surveillance, searching and apprehension, the exercise will also give the troops valuable experience in stability, support, patrol, traffic control, vehicle searches and other skills needed for deployment in an urban environment.

    "This exercise will improve the real-life operational skills of the unit," said Kots. "And it will hopefully improve the public's understanding of military operations.""



    And a National Guard unit needs these skills to deploy WHERE and for WHAT PURPOSE?

    Since we already have plenty ofLEAs for this purpose, one can onlywonder ifthis is a spin up of a very dangerous trend.



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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    National guard are the organization who I'd think would handle a call for a state of emergency. I'm not sure if Iowa has in their books a law against confiscation of firearms during a state of emergency. I think the training would be overall good.

    Scenario in my mind, bad terrorist weapons dealer arms people to overthrow the government in to anarchy, NG moves in and puts a stop to it.

    Scenario in my mind--they can classify any gun owner as a "weapons dealer", and as for terrorism...that is all semantics. For example, when the Russians were in Afghanistan and we were arming the Afghans--they were "freedom fighters", but now they are terrorists--this comes down to the old adage that "the enemy of your enemy is your friend"...To the Germans, the French underground were terrorists, to the British the American colonials were terrorists..it is all semantics, written from the viewpoint of the nation involved at the time...

    I don't think the training was meant to be of anti-firearm in nature.

    Don't kid yourself--this "exercise" has been happening in other areas. They are getting the people used to the idea of the military on the streets, and slowly into accepting the idea that we should just let them in to search whenever and whereever they feel like.


    Also, tbh, this has to do more with psychological training as well not only for the NG but for the people as well. They want to see how people will react, and Arcadia is a town under 500.

    I would hope they would be upset and totally unwilling to accept or participate in this "event".

    Would you rather have an accidental/negligent discharge from a guardsman made out of fear?

    I would rather the NG not be on the streets except under a full declaration of martial law, but by that time Posse Comitatus has been suspended as well as the all Constitutional protections--and hence a military junta where we could be detained indefinitely, thrown into a military brig, tried without our Constitutional protections, and subjected to military justice and just done away with and that would be that.

    The same reason many people on this forum enroll in tactical training using carbine, self defense, etc. We all have a right to make sure we are safe, as does the government needs to make sure they're acted properly.

    They have access to the necessary training to make sure they act properly--it is called the Constitution of the United States..

    We the people do indeed have a need to make sure we are trained properly--hence the carbine and tactical courses that many enroll in. I think everyone should enroll in these courses.

    I know I have overly simplified things, but nothing like this is done without an ulterior motive behind it. Don't simply trust the official statements....there is an old saying that goes "I have heard the official story, now tell me the truth"...

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    I think you're over reacting, there are too many which are even in the military who would impose on citizens.

    I do not think or hope the US would ever pull an Egypt and foolishly be under Marshal Law for decades. Egypt has been under marshal law since 1967 when the president was assassinated.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    FMCDH wrote:
    And a National Guard unit needs these skills to deploy WHERE and for WHAT PURPOSE?

    Since we already have plenty ofLEAs for this purpose, one can onlywonder ifthis is a spin up of a very dangerous trend.


    If you've any other recommendations on what should happen in case of a terrorist attack, domestic or otherwise, to create anarchy I'd like to know.

    During a state of panic, are you going to stand out and direct traffic on your own time and expenses? What about looting? Are you going to go around in every neighborhood on your own time to also stop looting?

    Take a few minutes, look at katrina, besides the gun confiscation look at how the local police handled the situation.

    Everyone is screaming "we don't want government control" yet they're screaming, "WHY ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT HELPING US!" i.e. Looters, murderers, thefts during a state of emergency or otherwise.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Everyone is screaming "we don't want government control" yet they're screaming, "WHY ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT HELPING US!" i.e. Looters, murderers, thefts during a state of emergency or otherwise.
    Not everyone is "screaming" for government help.

    The fact is that the first people the government has historically subjected (and successfully, I might add) to unconstitutional mandates are law-abiding citizens.

    Why? Because they just want to live their lives and they probably believe that if they cooperate the government will just let them live in peace. The Jews Hitler sequestered in the Warsaw ghettos believed this.

    The problem, again, is the definition of "terrorist" attack. The term is so liquid that it doesn't mean the same from day to day. By my definition, the empire is enacting financial domestic terrorism on the citizenry as we speak and we are helpless to counteract or prevent it. Every political option has been exhausted and the government "of the people" has refused to cease and desist its immoral and usurping behaviour.

    It is time to abjure the realm.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    FMCDH wrote:
    And a National Guard unit needs these skills to deploy WHERE and for WHAT PURPOSE?

    Since we already have plenty ofLEAs for this purpose, one can onlywonder ifthis is a spin up of a very dangerous trend.


    If you've any other recommendations on what should happen in case of a terrorist attack, domestic or otherwise, to create anarchy I'd like to know.

    During a state of panic, are you going to stand out and direct traffic on your own time and expenses? What about looting? Are you going to go around in every neighborhood on your own time to also stop looting?

    Take a few minutes, look at katrina, besides the gun confiscation look at how the local police handled the situation.

    Everyone is screaming "we don't want government control" yet they're screaming, "WHY ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT HELPING US!" i.e. Looters, murderers, thefts during a state of emergency or otherwise.
    This training isnt just about them learning skills to handle the aftermath of a natural or man made disaster. They are being taught to performa LAW ENFORCEMENT roll such as search, arrest and seizure on private citizen property. This goes soWAY beyond the scope of what the National Guardis intended for, and what military are even allowed to do without being under the DIRECT and SUBORDINATEDIRECTION OFTHE CIVIL AUTHORITY.

    Again, I say we have plenty ofstate, county, cityAND federal LEOs to handle that type of thing should the need arise.Militarydirecting traffic is one thing. Military escorting me through my own house to search my closets is quite another.

    You want to train someone, train the LEAs we have to deal with these things better in an emergency. Thats what they are there for.

    This is a bad, BADidea, and no good can come of it in the long run, andour founding fathers told us so.

  10. #10
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Just think of it this way then, at least half of "them" are on our side even though many would happily carry out unconstitutional orders.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    I think you're over reacting, there are too many which are even in the military who would impose on citizens.

    I do not think or hope the US would ever pull an Egypt and foolishly be under Marshal Law for decades. Egypt has been under marshal law since 1967 when the president was assassinated.
    War Powers Act, Patriot Act and Protect America Act.

    We have essentially been in a state of emergency since 1933
    here is a quote from the Special Committee on the Termination of the National Emergency from Nov. 19, 1973: Since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency. In fact, there are now in effect four presidentially-proclaimed states of national emergency: In addition to the national emergency declared by President Roosevelt in 1933, there are also the national emergency proclaimed by President Truman on December 16, 1950, during the Korean conflict, and the states of national emergency declared by President Nixon on March 23, 1970, and August 15, 1971. If these emergency declarations have been repealed and normalcy restored--please correct me.

    The Patriot Act gave the government sweeping new powers to spy on American citizens.
    The Protect America Act gave the government the authority to eavesdrop without a FISA warrant.

    And before the PAA the government unlawfully eavesdropped on American citizens since 2001.

    They had and probably still have secret locations throughout the world where they hold people for interrogation.

    They have kidnapped innocent people and renditioned them to third party countries for what they call "rough interrogation"...I can cite you two instances right now.
    One was a German citizen of Lebanese descent kidnapped at a Macedonia border crossing and handed over to the CIA and sent to Afghanistan where he was held for about 6 months and then released after the CIA realized it screwed up--to date no compensation has been paid to this man, and his claims were disallowed due to "national security". The other was a Canadian citizen of I think it was Syrian descent who was sent to Syria--both made the news, both admitted they were tortured while in captivity, but both were essentially ignored after the first 30 second spot.
    I bring this up because--if they can do it to them, they can just as easily do it to us.


    I think it was Pres. Clinton tried or wanted to give up the War Powers Act, but was rebuffed by Congress. Under Bush the authority of the federal government was greatly expanded and our rights eroded even more....

    what will the next 4 years bring? How many more rights will we as a nation lose in the name of national security?

    Over reacting to a NG exercise at crowd control and a hunt for a "weapons dealer" in the US, where troops go house to house conducting searches? I have legitimate concerns about where we as a nation are headed.



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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    well, I tend to let happen happen, if they overstepped their bounds then fry em in court.

    what do you think happened after katrina gun confiscation? Many states turned around and passed bills disallowing such behavior. From bad things comes good, we set rules to bad behavior. When we don't have rules then the behavior is legal. I realize all forces except the Coast Guard are supposed to be restricted from law enforcement, and they will be punished if they overstep their bounds.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    I love our fighting men and women. I back them up without question.....EXCEPT....training or not, I will not submit to a search or seizure by them.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    I love our fighting men and women. I back them up without question.....EXCEPT....training or not, I will not submit to a search or seizure by them.
    nobody is saying people *must* comply with the training in arcadia, it is voluntary.

    Given our destabilizing economy, it is my belief they're trying to ready themselves for mass hysteria.

    Given said, I know for a fact many in the Iowa NG would never do anything unconstitutional. I've friends in the Iowa NG who are firearms enthusiasts, some which would OC in their city if they didn't live in such a liberal city where the town would implode on itself from liberals, who have asked their fellow guards what they think and would do if ordered to do such a routine. I'll have to ask him what he thinks after running the training in Arcadia.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    well, I tend to let happen happen, if they overstepped their bounds then fry em in court.

    what do you think happened after katrina gun confiscation? Many states turned around and passed bills disallowing such behavior. From bad things comes good, we set rules to bad behavior. When we don't have rules then the behavior is legal. I realize all forces except the Coast Guard are supposed to be restricted from law enforcement, and they will be punished if they overstep their bounds.
    Coast Guard authority stops at the shoreline. When we arrest someone at sea, the civil authorities are on the pier to pick him up when we get there. When I hit land, I have no more authority to arrest, detain, search or seize than the rest of the citizenry. And in the case of LE activity on land inan "emergency" we are under the directsubordination of Civic LE authorities at all times.

    The Coast Guard is, and should be, the only exception to military fulfilling a LE roll under ANY circumstances, and thats only because our men and woman have extensive training on the mater, and fulfillthe roll on a regular basis.Not justa weekends worth once or twice a year.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    You guys get all the coolest boats, too. Like Weebles.

    Flip 'em over and they will re-right. Fast, too.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    FMCDH wrote:
    And a National Guard unit needs these skills to deploy WHERE and for WHAT PURPOSE?

    Since we already have plenty ofLEAs for this purpose, one can onlywonder ifthis is a spin up of a very dangerous trend.


    If you've any other recommendations on what should happen in case of a terrorist attack, domestic or otherwise, to create anarchy I'd like to know.

    Again--this is semantics. Terrorism is a word. It is viewed from the standpoint of those being attacked. When it was reversed, and the groups were fighting those we considered our enemies--the Germans, the Russians, they were freedom fighters...now they are terrorists--and yet their conduct has not changed....so tell me the difference between us and the Russians...How can they be terrorists when they are fighting us, but were freedom fighters when they were fighting the Russians in the early to mid and late 1980s and early into the 90s'?

    During a state of panic, are you going to stand out and direct traffic on your own time and expenses? What about looting? Are you going to go around in every neighborhood on your own time to also stop looting?

    During a state of panic I intend on minding my own business and tend to my own affairs and deal with my own safety and the safety of those I love.

    Take a few minutes, look at katrina, besides the gun confiscation look at how the local police handled the situation.

    They police in several instances WERE looting as well. The police were conducting unlawful and dare I say strictly ILLEGAL gun grabs--and the people gave them up...Several blatant murders were committed by the police and how many civil rights violations?
    I'm well aware of Katrina...and it took the federal government almost a week to even get food or water to the superdome...even the federal government screwed up on that.

    Everyone is screaming "we don't want government control" yet they're screaming, "WHY ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT HELPING US!" i.e. Looters, murderers, thefts during a state of emergency or otherwise.

    It is because they have been conditioned to the concept of "the government can protect you"


    As a final note--the "terrorists" that everyone should worry about do not, in my opinion run around in turbans and carry a Kalashnikov, they walk around in $5000 Armani suits and sit in some of the biggest positions of power in the country/world.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    You guys get all the coolest boats, too. Like Weebles.

    Flip 'em over and they will re-right. Fast, too.
    We DO, don't we!

    Patrol boats that go in excess of 60mphwith 50 cals, whats not to love!

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    well, I tend to let happen happen, if they overstepped their bounds then fry em in court.

    what do you think happened after katrina gun confiscation? Many states turned around and passed bills disallowing such behavior. From bad things comes good, we set rules to bad behavior. When we don't have rules then the behavior is legal. I realize all forces except the Coast Guard are supposed to be restricted from law enforcement, and they will be punished if they overstep their bounds.
    does you no good to "fry em in court" if they have already stripped you of your rights and treated you like refuse.

    The people in New Orleans should have NEVER surrendered their firearms.

    Even the Coast Guard has no authority over you if you are on land.

    They will be punished huh? You mean like they were when they confiscated the firearms in N.O.? So how exactly were they punished again after N.O.?



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    FMCDH wrote:
    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    well, I tend to let happen happen, if they overstepped their bounds then fry em in court.

    what do you think happened after katrina gun confiscation? Many states turned around and passed bills disallowing such behavior. From bad things comes good, we set rules to bad behavior. When we don't have rules then the behavior is legal. I realize all forces except the Coast Guard are supposed to be restricted from law enforcement, and they will be punished if they overstep their bounds.
    Coast Guard authority stops at the shoreline. When we arrest someone at sea, the civil authorities are on the pier to pick him up when we get there. When I hit land, I have no more authority to arrest, detain, search or seize than the rest of the citizenry. And in the case of LE activity on land inan "emergency" we are under the directsubordination of Civic LE authorities at all times.

    The Coast Guard is, and should be, the only exception to military fulfilling a LE roll under ANY circumstances, and thats only because our men and woman have extensive training on the mater, and fulfillthe roll on a regular basis.Not justa weekends worth once or twice a year.

    ABSOLUTELY NOT. The CG is a part of the military and you should not be fulfilling ANY law enforcement role whatsoever--period. And LEOs should be under stricter control than what they are anyway--but that is a side issue not related to this directly.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I think a lot of extra stuff is being read into this. The US military has trained in the US with the assistance of US citizens since at least WWII. They trained for D-Day in England, sometimes in populated areas with the assistance of British citizens to act as French and German civilians. Much of the training they are doing is similar to the missions they are doing in the Middle East which often more resemble police patrols than military patrols. So there is historical precedence for such training in the US.

    While it is easy in such uncertain times with good reason to distrust the government in general and this administration and congress in particular I have a hard time putting such nefarious connotations on this training.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    TheMrMitch wrote:
    I love our fighting men and women. I back them up without question.....EXCEPT....training or not, I will not submit to a search or seizure by them.
    nobody is saying people *must* comply with the training in arcadia, it is voluntary.

    It is a test, an experiment, to see how the people will respond...that is why they chose the town of 500...don't think they didn't do a demographic on the town to see what the town was made up of. They know exactly what they are doing.

    Given our destabilizing economy, it is my belief they're trying to ready themselves for mass hysteria.

    Disagree.


    Given said, I know for a fact many in the Iowa NG would never do anything unconstitutional. I've friends in the Iowa NG who are firearms enthusiasts, some which would OC in their city if they didn't live in such a liberal city where the town would implode on itself from liberals, who have asked their fellow guards what they think and would do if ordered to do such a routine. I'll have to ask him what he thinks after running the training in Arcadia.

    They would follow the orders issued to them.

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    deepdiver wrote:
    While it is easy in such uncertain times with good reason to distrust the government in general and this administration and congress in particular I have a hard time putting such nefarious connotations on this training.
    Then you have more faith in the government than I do.


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    following orders only goes so far. I walk up to a house "do you have any firearms?" owner replies "yes" I reply "no? ok good have a nice day"

    personally id like to partake in this training

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    r6-rider wrote:
    following orders only goes so far. I walk up to a house "do you have any firearms?" owner replies "yes" I reply "no? ok good have a nice day"

    personally id like to partake in this training
    assuming you have an understanding company officer or NCO that would be great and I wish there were more like you. Assuming you have no LEOs with you intent on confiscation along the lines of those from the big easy....

    following orders does only go so far--and if the soldiers understood the difference between a Constitutionally lawful versus a Constitutionally unlawful order--and who would be willing to stand against their superiors in the face of unlawful orders--that would be great.

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