National Guard training in Iowa -weapons dealers

deepdiver · Feb 20, 2009

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I think a lot of extra stuff is being read into this. The US military has trained in the US with the assistance of US citizens since at least WWII. They trained for D-Day in England, sometimes in populated areas with the assistance of British citizens to act as French and German civilians. Much of the training they are doing is similar to the missions they are doing in the Middle East which often more resemble police patrols than military patrols. So there is historical precedence for such training in the US.

While it is easy in such uncertain times with good reason to distrust the government in general and this administration and congress in particular I have a hard time putting such nefarious connotations on this training.

suntzu · Feb 20, 2009

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insane.kangaroo wrote:

TheMrMitch wrote:

I love our fighting men and women. I back them up without question.....EXCEPT....training or not, I will not submit to a search or seizure by them.

Click to expand...

nobody is saying people *must* comply with the training in arcadia, it is voluntary.

It is a test, an experiment, to see how the people will respond...that is why they chose the town of 500...don't think they didn't do a demographic on the town to see what the town was made up of. They know exactly what they are doing.

Given our destabilizing economy, it is my belief they're trying to ready themselves for mass hysteria.

Disagree.

Given said, I know for a fact many in the Iowa NG would never do anything unconstitutional. I've friends in the Iowa NG who are firearms enthusiasts, some which would OC in their city if they didn't live in such a liberal city where the town would implode on itself from liberals, who have asked their fellow guards what they think and would do if ordered to do such a routine. I'll have to ask him what he thinks after running the training in Arcadia.

They would follow the orders issued to them.

suntzu · Feb 20, 2009

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deepdiver wrote:

While it is easy in such uncertain times with good reason to distrust the government in general and this administration and congress in particular I have a hard time putting such nefarious connotations on this training.

Then you have more faith in the government than I do.

r6-rider · Feb 20, 2009

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following orders only goes so far. I walk up to a house "do you have any firearms?" owner replies "yes" I reply "no? ok good have a nice day"

personally id like to partake in this training

suntzu · Feb 20, 2009

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r6-rider wrote:

following orders only goes so far. I walk up to a house "do you have any firearms?" owner replies "yes" I reply "no? ok good have a nice day"

personally id like to partake in this training

assuming you have an understanding company officer or NCO that would be great and I wish there were more like you. Assuming you have no LEOs with you intent on confiscation along the lines of those from the big easy....

following orders does only go so far--and if the soldiers understood the difference between a Constitutionally lawful versus a Constitutionally unlawful order--and who would be willing to stand against their superiors in the face of unlawful orders--that would be great.

Gordie · Feb 21, 2009

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Sounds a lot like the work they may be doing if deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

FMCDH · Feb 21, 2009

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Gordie wrote:

Sounds a lot like the work they may be doing if deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

The National Guard were normally not intended to be deployed anywhere except within the US and its territories, therefor, anything they are training for is probably intended to be put to use right here, in this country. There is an allowance for the governor of a state to call them up for limited LE purposes in the event of a natural or man made disaster.

It would probably be helpful for the purpose of this discussion for people to read and get familiar with the following three articles and their associated articles. As always, this is Wikipedia we are talking about, so if you question anything in the articles, seek "official" sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Guard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act

Edited for purposes of clarity for intent of statement.

KBCraig · Feb 21, 2009

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Gordie wrote:

Sounds a lot like the work they may be doing if deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

More like New Orleans.

deepdiver · Feb 21, 2009

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FMCDH wrote:

Gordie wrote:

Sounds a lot like the work they may be doing if deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

Click to expand...

The National Guard are normally not deployed anywhere except within the US and its territories, therefor, anything they are training for is probably intended to be put to use right here, in this country.

Oregon National Guard deployed to Iraq:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/01/ap_oreguard_013009/
Wisconsin National Guard deployed to Iraq:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29239316/
Minnesota National Guard deployed to Iraq:
http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/milit...or-sending-mn-national-guard-to-iraq/14388373
Ohio, Arkansas, Indiana and Oklahoma National Guard deployed for second tour in Iraq along with several others:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9482773
More than 250,000 National Guard troops deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan from 2001-2007:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22451.pdf

Maybe they are training for policing operations and to train domestic troops and LE in Iraq and Afghanistan just like the military says they are since that has been a lot of their mission in those places.

wylde007 · Feb 21, 2009

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The National Guard are normally not deployed anywhere except within the US and its territories.

That was true until Bushy, Sr. federalized the Guard during Desert Storm.

On a related note, due to popular demand and massive citizen disapproval (veiled in the report) it appears that this exercise has been significantly re-thought.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89527

FMCDH · Feb 21, 2009

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wylde007 wrote:

The National Guard are normally not deployed anywhere except within the US and its territories.

Click to expand...

That was true until Bushy, Sr. federalized the Guard during Desert Storm.

On a related note, due to popular demand and massive citizen disapproval (veiled in the report) it appears that this exercise has been significantly re-thought.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89527

Exactly, and another excellent example of how the office of the president continually oversteps it bounds against the states, and ignores the constitution whenever it suites them to do so.

It should never have been allowed, and our NG troops should not be used in such a capacity, ESPECIALLY against the state governments wishes.

Can anyone actually cite why the Iowa NG are training in this capacity and where these skills will be used?

I personally think its wrong one way or another. They shouldn't be sent overseas to do this kind of work, and they shouldn't be doing it on US soil either.

MamaLiberty · Feb 21, 2009

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From David Codrea at War on Guns http://waronguns.blogspot.com/

It's Off http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89527

Following publicized reports that the Army National Guard was planning a military training exercise on the streets of a rural Iowa town, the commanding officers have called off the mock "invasion." [More]

We talked about this yesterday.

An inside source I contacted told me:

David, these are normal exercises for the Guard. The Guard gets deployed more than active duty units nowadays, and a lot of their missions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo involve searching for weapons smugglers in urban environments. This is nothing to be alarmed about, and it’s nothing weird.

WRSA still isn't buying the official line and give their reasons.

I have to say I respect my source, but then have to wonder how realistic the described exercises really are. I can't see politely looking over homeowner shoulders while they cooperatively open cabinets to be any scenario I'd expect to encounter in actual operations.

FMCDH · Feb 21, 2009

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MamaLiberty wrote:

I have to say I respect my source, but then have to wonder how realistic the described exercises really are. I can't see politely looking over homeowner shoulders while they cooperatively open cabinets to be any scenario I'd expect to encounter in actual operations.

Thanks MamaLiberty,

I figured that was the story, but like you, I just don't see such tactics being used in a "hostile" territory in the manner of which they are being trained.

Like I said before, I don't agree with NG troops being trained in such a capacity for foreign OR domestic purposes. Directing traffic and doing street patrols for looting during a domestic disaster is one thing, but doing house to house "inspections" is quite another.

wylde007 · Feb 21, 2009

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FMCDH wrote:

Like I said before, I don't agree with NG troops being trained in such a capacity for foreign OR domestic purposes. Directing traffic and doing street patrols for looting during a domestic disaster is one thing, but doing house to house "inspections" is quite another.

And ONLY under the direct orders of the GOVERNOR OF THEIR STATE and the supervision of the local LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITY, to whom they DIRECTLY REPORT.

This isn't a philosophical issue, it's one of CONSTITUTIONALITY. Plain and simple.

The only time the Guard should be acting in a military capacity on U.S. soil is in time of foreign invasion and DECLARED WAR to defend against assault. Otherwise they should answer to the states and the people to defend against assaults on our liberty from far more insidious and unaccountable sources.

DonSmithnotTMD · Feb 21, 2009

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wylde007 wrote:

The National Guard are normally not deployed anywhere except within the US and its territories.

Click to expand...

That was true until Bushy, Sr. federalized the Guard during Desert Storm.

On a related note, due to popular demand and massive citizen disapproval (veiled in the report) it appears that this exercise has been significantly re-thought.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89527

The National Guard deployed extensively in WWI, WWII and Korea. Only one unit was deployed to Vietnam because Kennedy/Johnson didn't want to bother everybody.

wylde007 · Feb 21, 2009

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I didn't say they had not been deployed at other times. I said Bush, Sr. federalized them.

Please read first, then respond. Read twice to ensure comprehension if necessary.

During those prior conflicts it is my understanding that the independent state Governors granted permission for their units to be called up and deployed.

Now they have been cut from the process and the president (small "p") can call them whenever he pleases, thanks to the wonder of executive order.

suntzu · Feb 21, 2009

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wylde007 wrote:

The National Guard are normally not deployed anywhere except within the US and its territories.

Click to expand...

That was true until Bushy, Sr. federalized the Guard during Desert Storm.

On a related note, due to popular demand and massive citizen disapproval (veiled in the report) it appears that this exercise has been significantly re-thought.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89527

:celebrate now if the people will simply put their collective foot down and tell them there will be NO exercise regardless of how small....

echo6tango · Feb 21, 2009

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FMCDH wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

You guys get all the coolest boats, too. Like Weebles.

Flip 'em over and they will re-right. Fast, too.

Click to expand...

We DO, don't we!

Patrol boats that go in excess of 60mphwith 50 cals, whats not to love!

When I was active duty in the Marine Corps, we rode cutters down in the Caribbean in the early 90’s during migrant interdiction operations. 270’s, 210’s, and 110 foot patrol cutters. The 110’s were my favorite because they could cruise. Most of the Coasties loved having us on board and took very good care of us. I have a pic of me somewhere strapped into a 25mm deck cannon on a 210. Lots of fun and had a great farmer's tan for a while!

Back on original topic…the Governor of a state has the authority to deploy their State’s National Guard troops within their state in response to natural disasters, civil unrest, etc. If the troops may be deployed in the local communities for such responses, then they should be adequately trained in civil matters (i.e. enforcing law and keeping the peace) as well as operating in urban environments.

The kind of training described in the article has been going on for a long time on civilian property. Down in North Carolina, the Army compensates (at least used to) land owners for the allowing the use of their property for training purposes. Local civilians join in as role players in some scenarios.

insane.kangaroo wrote:

SNIP -[/i]I'm not sure if Iowa has in their books a law against confiscation of firearms during a state of emergency.

Congress passed a Federal law against the confiscation of firearms during an emergency (in response to the crap that happened during Katrina): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Recovery_Personal_Protection_Act_of_2006

However, the temporary surrender of a firearm could be required "as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation". Hmmm, guess I'll not be heading to a FEMA camp or asking for a ride...

FMCDH · Feb 21, 2009

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However, the temporary surrender of a firearm could be required "as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation". Hmmm, guess I'll not be heading to a FEMA camp or asking for a ride...

Not that I would probably be left to be home during an emergency like that in my state, but should the improbable happen...

"I see, so your saying that I have to give up my arms and put my life and my family's life in your hands during a time of emergency and widespread unrest from this point on? Thanks for stopping by, have a nice day, I will catch the next bus."

:lol:

suntzu · Feb 21, 2009

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echo6tango wrote:

FMCDH wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

You guys get all the coolest boats, too. Like Weebles.

Flip 'em over and they will re-right. Fast, too.

Click to expand...

We DO, don't we!

Patrol boats that go in excess of 60mphwith 50 cals, whats not to love!

Click to expand...

When I was active duty in the Marine Corps, we rode cutters down in the Caribbean in the early 90’s during migrant interdiction operations. 270’s, 210’s, and 110 foot patrol cutters. The 110’s were my favorite because they could cruise. Most of the Coasties loved having us on board and took very good care of us. I have a pic of me somewhere strapped into a 25mm deck cannon on a 210. Lots of fun and had a great farmer's tan for a while!

Back on original topic…the Governor of a state has the authority to deploy their State’s National Guard troops within their state in response to natural disasters, civil unrest, etc. If the troops may be deployed in the local communities for such responses, then they should be adequately trained in civil matters (i.e. enforcing law and keeping the peace) as well as operating in urban environments.

The kind of training described in the article has been going on for a long time on civilian property. Down in North Carolina, the Army compensates (at least used to) land owners for the allowing the use of their property for training purposes. Local civilians join in as role players in some scenarios.

insane.kangaroo wrote:

SNIP -I'm not sure if Iowa has in their books a law against confiscation of firearms during a state of emergency.

Click to expand...

Congress passed a Federal law against the confiscation of firearms during an emergency (in response to the crap that happened during Katrina): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Recovery_Personal_Protection_Act_of_2006

However, the temporary surrender of a firearm could be required "as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation". Hmmm, guess I'll not be heading to a FEMA camp or asking for a ride...

So I'm somewhat confused--H.R 5013 the Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006 was never voted on in the Senate, although it was overwhelmingly approved in the House....so was this bill just amended in with the Homeland Security appropriations bill under the Vitter Amendment for 2006?

National Guard training in Iowa -weapons dealers

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