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Thread: I was arrested by El Cajon PD today...

  1. #1
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    good afternoon my fellow open carriers of firearms and freedom fighters...
    as you guessed from the title topic, yes, I was arrested by law enforcement today. I know you guys are all waiting to hear the details, hold your horses. Let me say that yes, I DID have my recorder with me and got it all on tape up til when they had me in the backseat of their cruiser the first couple of minutes as my batteries actually died...at such a crucial time...errrrr!!
    Ok, let me get right into it, hope you enjoy the read and please let me know if there was anything I could of done better or what have you.....on to the incident.

    February 20th, 2009 at approximately 1:45pm I was at Westfield Shopping Center Parkway Plaza in El Cajon at Macy's exchanging a pair of sun glasses I got as a gift. One of their employees come up and asked that if I needed help to just ask. I was trying on different pairs for about a good 20 minutes or so. As I was trying one pair on, I saw in the reflection in the mirror a shoulder patch of an El Cajon Police officer and then a few more and one of them grabs my arm...

    Officer 1: keep your hands where they're at, keep em up high for me please
    Me: no problem officer, no problem.
    Officer 1: you got any ID to go with that weapon?
    Me: yes sir in my right rear pocket
    Officer 1: Who are you?
    Officer 2: reaching for my weapon to unholster it, I give no resistance
    Me: my name is James
    Officer 1: Why you carrying a weapon
    Me: I open carry here in the State of California which according to Penal Code 12031 says I can openly carry so long as the weapon is not loaded and is in plain view
    Officer 2: checking my weapon, gives the all clear sign that the weapon is indeed unloaded and retains my weapon
    Officer 1: you open carry?
    Me: yes I open carry
    Officer 1: you know what, you cant carry no ammunition on your belt when you open carry, you know that? Go ahead, put your hands behind your back
    Me: I comply with no resistance

    my ammunition is carried in mag pouches...

    Officer 3: proceeds to place handcuffs on my hands
    Officer 1: having ammunition on your belt is the same as having the gun loaded
    Me: Not according to case law in pursuant to PC 12031
    Officer 1: you can open carry without ammunition on your belt

    they proceed to at this time start to walk me towards an exit at Macy's

    Officer 1: yeah he has two loaded magazines (saying to another officer)
    Officer 4: whats your name sir?
    Me: James
    Officer 4: Lets do this, as a courtesy to James we're gonna detain you for the moment, you're not under arrest. We'll go research what we got here, is this ok with you?
    Me: yes sir, that's fine

    by this time, we're outside of Macy's and they're walking me towards one of their cruisers

    Officer 1: close proximatity of the ammunition to the gun is the same as it being loaded (telling Officer 4 this)
    Officer 4: here's what we're gonna do, we're gonna take a walk out to the car, research this and get you back under your way, remember, you're not under arrest, ok?
    Me: ok

    I'm at this time letting Officer 4 know that "occording to PC 12031 and case law that carrying ammunition seperate from the weapon does NOT consitute as loaded as the other officer is implying.
    Officer 4: I understand this but just let us do the research on this and we'll look for what we call in court case law and see what we can find.

    (Well duh, didn't I just say that)...lol.
    Anyways, by this time they are placing me in the backseat of the cruiser and also bear in mind, I have not told them where I work. I feel cause where I work shouldn't have any bearings or relevance to this situation.
    Officer 4 is now placing me in the rear of a cruiser now and gives me the rant of how they're for the 2nd Amendment and all and that they're calling the DA's office now.

    Officer 5: whats your name? (while I am in the backseat of the cruiser)
    Me: James
    Officer 5: James what?
    Me: 88888 (just protecting my identity here folks)
    Officer 5: you look familiar, you ever been arrested before?
    Me: no sir, not even so much as a traffic violation
    Officer 5: you sure, cause I honestly think I've arrested you before.

    I wanna crack up laughing here by this time as this poor rookie doesn't know he is dealing with a seasoned veteran off duty officer.

    Me: yes officer, I am quite sure.

    He walks away but before he does, I let him know if it was okay if they could retrieve my items that were in a bag where they made contact with me at as it had my sunglasses I was trying to exchange. They did and was happy about that. By this time now, I think was when my recorder died as there was nothing else recorded so I will just type out what happened the next few minutes.

    Officer 4: James, we're on the phone with the DA's office still and we're checking up on this and hopefully we'll get you on your way or if we indeed do have to arrest you.
    Me: thats fine sir.

    Officer 4 then proceeds to check up on my well-being as it was a little warm out today and asked if I was ok. I told him the cuffs were on a bit tight (which I took pictures of the slight bruising) and he was kind enough to loosen them up a bit. He said "The cuffs were'nt double locked like they shoulda been and thats why they're too tight" Again, wish my recorder hadnt of died because this would make a good arguement right there. Officer 4 then gave me a polite interview just asking what I do for a living and this is where my off duty status just had to come into play, I didnt want it to because like I stated earlier, my job status should not have any bearings on my right to open carry.
    About 5 minutes goes by and then Officer's 1 and 4 come over again, open the door and proceed to tel me that I am now under arrest but did not give me my Miranda Rights then and there. So, they proceeded to take me out of the cruiser and then proceed to give me a full patdown. I was then told by Officer 1

    Officer 1: Ok james, what we're gonna do now is we're gonna go over to the station, we'll write you up a citation for this incident and then your weapon will be impounded. You'll have to go to the courts to get a court order, then bring us that said court order and then we'll release the weapon back to you.

    He then walks me over to his cruiser and places me in the back seat of it. Now the police station is literally right across the street from the Parkway Plaza Mall on the opposite corner. So its only like maybe not even a 3 or 4 minute car ride. We get there, he walks me into the building and put me in their interview area. I was given another courtesy patdown as per their policy which is in plain view on the wall in black and white and told to have a seat on the bench.
    There were a couple of gangbangers in there and they removed them immediately I am guessing because of my off duty status. There, Officer 1 proceeded to ask me the usual where I live, job, place of birth yadda yada yadda. He then proceeded to read my Miranda Rights and after that I just kept quiet. Officer 3 showed up and then proceeded to take my pictures all the way around. He even took pictures of my still attached Blackhawk Serpta Holster and mag pouches on the opposite side of my hip. I was asked by Officer 1 who my duty WC was and told him and gave him the number.
    After awhile of just sitting there, Officer 3 comes back to inform me that there are two different DA's argueing over the legality of all of this and that this would probably take another ten minutes.
    Those ten minutes roll by and then Officer 1 comes back to inform me that because of the two DA's argueing the case, I was no longer under arrest and was to be released with all my posessions immediately including weapons and ammunition. He also informed me that he would give me a ride to me POV and that there was no other reason to detain me any longer then necessary.
    He gave me a ride back to the car and then we proceeded to talk off the record about open carry and all and we shared a few war stories. I told him that I know he was just doing his job and that I appreciated all of them being courtous and professional.
    For those of you reading this, I want to point out that some of this officers in this department, I grew up with, so they know me and know what I do for a living. I just wished out of all of this exprience, they knew more about the open carry law.
    So, please let me know if I did anything right or wrong during this and look forward to hearing from everyone on this topic. I also encourage you to please PM me if you want me to tell you personally.
    Thanks guys and keep it up. My only thing here, is I didnt have any of the pamplets as I felt those probably woulda helped. Take care and god bless....

    Oh, one more thing that I thought was funny. After they told me I was no longer under arrest, Officer 3 admitted to me that he hated where I was standing...right in front of a mirror so that I could see them coming. So much for tactical approach huh....lol.


  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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    Wow! Sounds like you provided the El Cajon PD with an education.
    Since they placed you under arrest, is there an arrest report. If so I would recommend requesting a copy. And any other information which might have been generated by this incident. If the DA's office got involved I would expect that it would cause them to establish some kind of official philosophy about open carry.
    Do we recognize it as legal? Do we arrest and evaluate? Do we check for loaded and release.
    I would really be interested in their new official stance.
    Since you walked out under your own power with all of your property, I'd say it was a positive experience which will make it easier on the next open carrier to be contacted.

    Good job.

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    Is unloaded open carry legal in the jurisdiction where the Terry stop and arrest occurred?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Being an "insider", you need to educate that entire dept with a rather heated lesson on arrest procedure, detention policies, and more than a few OC flyers to be posted.

    Don't let the "blue wall" get in the way.

  5. #5
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    I would make a complaint, just to document the situation. The officers obviously need some additional training, a formal complaint might get this done.

    Also, I would make sure to send the CPOA memo to the department, and ask them to pass that around. I think that memo is OK, and is from an source they will respect.

    (I assume since you posted all the details here that you have no intention of pursuing civil or criminal charges against the department or officers involved for their abuse of power. While I hate to see the abuse of power go unpunished, I realize you have some professional and personal ties to the department.)
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    Citizen wrote:
    Is unloaded open carry legal in the jurisdiction where the Terry stop and arrest occurred?
    Bump.

    A lot of what I might say depends on the answer to this question.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
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    Citizen wrote:
    Is unloaded open carry legal in the jurisdiction where the Terry stop and arrest occurred?
    Yes, unless he was in a gov't building or a school zone.
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  8. #8
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Is unloaded open carry legal in the jurisdiction where the Terry stop and arrest occurred?
    Yes, unless he was in a gov't building or a school zone.
    Thank you.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
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    I dont' know whether to laugh that an LEO got falsely arrested. Or,

    Cry that there doesn't seem to be much indignation about it.

    Since the OP was seized from inception (hand on arm, keep hands high order) there would be no real point to refusing consent, except for form. Being non-LE I would have just to get it onto the recording in case the LEOs later claimed it was a consensual encounter in the early stages.

    As far as I know, LE is only allowed to inspect the weapon for unloaded condition. Thus, unless there was a 911 call alleging crime forwarded to the LEOs, the Terry stop was illegal, too.

    I'm not sure I can go along with the OPs assessment that the officers were courteous and professional. Unless he was just being superficially nice. And, unless the OP knows something about the 911 call that wasn't reported in the OP. I consider "professional" requires an accuratecertainty about thelaw.

    Am I wrongor is there still an illegal property (gun) seizure/due process violation here?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
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    consult a lawyer about possible legal action against the dept.

  11. #11
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    Dude, what a crock of CRAP! PM inbound!

  12. #12
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    Allow me to wax critical...

    giaking70 wrote:
    Officer 1: keep your hands where they're at, keep em up high for me please
    Me: no problem officer, no problem.
    Officer 1: you got any ID to go with that weapon?
    Me: yes sir in my right rear pocket I would have responded, "Am I being detained? Am I the subject of a criminal investigation?" Since I would not have ID on me, I'd tell them my name once asked. This would be the only question I would feel compelled to answer.
    Officer 1: Who are you?
    Officer 2: reaching for my weapon to unholster it, I give no resistance
    Me: my name is James
    Officer 1: Why you carrying a weapon
    Me: I open carry here in the State of California which according to Penal Code 12031 says I can openly carry so long as the weapon is not loaded and is in plain view No, 12031 criminalizes and defines a loaded weapon. 12025 criminalizes concealed weapons but defines a weapon carried exposed on a belt holster as not concealed. If I did chose to respond to this question, I would keep it simple. "It's not prohibited."
    Officer 2: checking my weapon, gives the all clear sign that the weapon is indeed unloaded and retains my weapon
    Officer 1: you open carry?
    Me: yes I open carry
    Officer 1: you know what, you cant carry no ammunition on your belt when you open carry, you know that? Go ahead, put your hands behind your back
    Me: I comply with no resistance

    my ammunition is carried in mag pouches...

    Officer 3: proceeds to place handcuffs on my hands
    Officer 1: having ammunition on your belt is the same as having the gun loaded Officer 1 is wrong. He would only be right if you were a felon or a member of a criminal gang. This will be his first learning experience. This incident will no doubt, result in new training or a new memo.
    Me: Not according to case law in pursuant to PC 12031
    Officer 1: you can open carry without ammunition on your belt

    they proceed to at this time start to walk me towards an exit at Macy's

    Officer 1: yeah he has two loaded magazines (saying to another officer)
    Officer 4: whats your name sir?
    Me: James
    Officer 4: Lets do this, as a courtesy to James we're gonna detain you for the moment, you're not under arrest. We'll go research what we got here, is this ok with you?
    Me: yes sir, that's fine.

    by this time, we're outside of Macy's and they're walking me towards one of their cruisers

    Officer 1: close proximatity of the ammunition to the gun is the same as it being loaded (telling Officer 4 this) Wrong, wrong, wrong...lacking some of the elements of a crime is the same as lacking all of them.
    Officer 4: here's what we're gonna do, we're gonna take a walk out to the car, research this and get you back under your way, remember, you're not under arrest, ok?
    Me: ok

    I'm at this time letting Officer 4 know that "occording to PC 12031 and case law that carrying ammunition seperate from the weapon does NOT consitute as loaded as the other officer is implying. "These are not the droids you are looking for." Your Jedi Mind Tricks must not work on ECPD. A valiant effort nonetheless.
    Officer 4: I understand this but just let us do the research on this and we'll look for what we call in court case law and see what we can find.

    (Well duh, didn't I just say that)...lol.
    Anyways, by this time they are placing me in the backseat of the cruiser and also bear in mind, I have not told them where I work. I feel cause where I work shouldn't have any bearings or relevance to this situation.
    Officer 4 is now placing me in the rear of a cruiser now and gives me the rant of how they're for the 2nd Amendment and all and that they're calling the DA's office now. If they were all for the 2nd amendment, they wouldnt have molested you, detained you and put you in that nice police car with the funny plastic back seat.

    Officer 5: whats your name? (while I am in the backseat of the cruiser)
    Me: James
    Officer 5: James what?
    Me: 88888 (just protecting my identity here folks)
    Officer 5: you look familiar, you ever been arrested before?
    Me: no sir, not even so much as a traffic violation
    Officer 5: you sure, cause I honestly think I've arrested you before. "Yes- CONFESS! You are a criminal! I know it." This is one of the reasons why I would have stopped answering questions after divulging my name.

    I wanna crack up laughing here by this time as this poor rookie doesn't know he is dealing with a seasoned veteran off duty officer.

    Me: yes officer, I am quite sure.

    He walks away but before he does, I let him know if it was okay if they could retrieve my items that were in a bag where they made contact with me at as it had my sunglasses I was trying to exchange. They did and was happy about that. By this time now, I think was when my recorder died as there was nothing else recorded so I will just type out what happened the next few minutes.

    Officer 4: James, we're on the phone with the DA's office still and we're checking up on this and hopefully we'll get you on your way or if we indeed do have to arrest you.
    Me: thats fine sir.

    Officer 4 then proceeds to check up on my well-being as it was a little warm out today and asked if I was ok. I told him the cuffs were on a bit tight (which I took pictures of the slight bruising) and he was kind enough to loosen them up a bit. He said "The cuffs were'nt double locked like they shoulda been and thats why they're too tight" Again, wish my recorder hadnt of died because this would make a good arguement right there. Officer 4 then gave me a polite interview just asking what I do for a living and this is where my off duty status just had to come into play, I didnt want it to because like I stated earlier, my job status should not have any bearings on my right to open carry. Well, it does. Your status as an 830 POgives you some pretty broad exemptions. Your dept may not like it and may attempt some disciplinary action, but this is lawful for anyone to do regardless of their status as PoPo or not.
    About 5 minutes goes by and then Officer's 1 and 4 come over again, open the door and proceed to tel me that I am now under arrest but did not give me my Miranda Rights then and there. So, they proceeded to take me out of the cruiser and then proceed to give me a full patdown. I was then told by Officer 1

    Officer 1: Ok james, what we're gonna do now is we're gonna go over to the station, we'll write you up a citation for this incident and then your weapon will be impounded. You'll have to go to the courts to get a court order, then bring us that said court order and then we'll release the weapon back to you. Okay. Cited for what exactly? 12031- loaded weapon without the loaded weapon? Weapon seized for no crime? 830 PO exempt from violation. Not only is there nothing to stick to you, but youre already teflon.

    He then walks me over to his cruiser and places me in the back seat of it. Now the police station is literally right across the street from the Parkway Plaza Mall on the opposite corner. So its only like maybe not even a 3 or 4 minute car ride. We get there, he walks me into the building and put me in their interview area. I was given another courtesy patdown as per their policy which is in plain view on the wall in black and white and told to have a seat on the bench.
    There were a couple of gangbangers in there and they removed them immediately I am guessing because of my off duty status. There, Officer 1 proceeded to ask me the usual where I live, job, place of birth yadda yada yadda. He then proceeded to read my Miranda Rights and after that I just kept quiet. Officer 3 showed up and then proceeded to take my pictures all the way around. He even took pictures of my still attached Blackhawk Serpta Holster and mag pouches on the opposite side of my hip. I was asked by Officer 1 who my duty WC was and told him and gave him the number.
    After awhile of just sitting there, Officer 3 comes back to inform me that there are two different DA's argueing over the legality of all of this and that this would probably take another ten minutes.
    Those ten minutes roll by and then Officer 1 comes back to inform me that because of the two DA's argueing the case, I was no longer under arrest and was to be released with all my posessions immediately including weapons and ammunition. He also informed me that he would give me a ride to me POV and that there was no other reason to detain me any longer then necessary.
    He gave me a ride back to the car and then we proceeded to talk off the record about open carry and all and we shared a few war stories. I told him that I know he was just doing his job and that I appreciated all of them being courtous and professional. Excellent. Only this should not have resulted in you being detained for anything beyong your 12031 (e) check. You walked away with everything except lost time. (Unless....)
    For those of you reading this, I want to point out that some of this officers in this department, I grew up with, so they know me and know what I do for a living. I just wished out of all of this exprience, they knew more about the open carry law.
    So, please let me know if I did anything right or wrong during this and look forward to hearing from everyone on this topic. I think you did well- though this un-arrestcould be construed as officers helping out one of their own. I also encourage you to please PM me if you want me to tell you personally.
    Thanks guys and keep it up. My only thing here, is I didnt have any of the pamplets as I felt those probably woulda helped. Take care and god bless....

    Oh, one more thing that I thought was funny. After they told me I was no longer under arrest, Officer 3 admitted to me that he hated where I was standing...right in front of a mirror so that I could see them coming. So much for tactical approach huh....lol.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

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    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  13. #13
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    Let me get this straight. Your a cop, and you need to ask what you did right or wrong?

    Hmmmm...

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    First and foremost, I would like to say that it is great that so many people have so much extra time on their hands that they are able to form an organization and webpage while the rest of us struggle to find or keep work in the struggling economy. It is also very interesting that the extra they do have is used to try to lure police, who I am sure they would be the first to call if they needed help, into going through with an “illegal arrest.”



    As far as the “I was arrested in El Cajon” story is concerned, I would think that a story that is supposed to make such a great statement would have been run through spell check at least once. It is hard to make an argument look or sound educated when basic words such as arguing (not argueing), experience (not exprience), and according (not occording), among many others, are misspelled multiple times throughout the “story.”



    It confuses me that, as the writer of the story who claims to be a LEO, why this issue would pertain to him at all since even off duty officers are allowed to carry loaded firearms at all times. It makes me think that he is not really a “LEO” and perhaps only works for a private security branch. I also thought that it was illegal to claim to be a police officer when you are not one.



    It also confuses me that, if the writer is indeed a LEO (which I am still not convinced of), why he would want to belittle the department that he “grew up with” since they “know me and know what I do for a living.” Of all people, he would know what true law enforcement officers do and deal with everyday and the idea that he feels it necessary to create one more call for service is disgusting. People are actually experiencing life and death emergencies while he is taking resources to test the system. If he feels that the department needs to be educated, there are many respectful and tactful ways to go about this besides posting degrading stories.



    I encourage the task of protecting our given rights but I also think there is a way to go about it looking more educated and being a little more tactful than this writer.



    I will quote the disclaimer that is throughout pages on this website and say, “All advice posted on this board should be considered nothing more than hearsay. Even if a poster identifies themselves as an attorney, law enforcement official or expert in a given field, there is no way to verify that fact. Therefore, any and all advice you glean from this forum should be independently verified!”



    In addition, my needed “membership” to this organization in order to post a response will be duly cancelled.

  15. #15
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    ghostrider wrote:
    Let me get this straight. Your a cop, and you need to ask what you did right or wrong?

    Hmmmm...
    Always got to be someone questioning the facts.

    Off duty officer - implied LEO but might be security officer. Can't believe that an "off duty" LEO would be required to carry an unloaded weapon even in Kalifornica !

    All right now, who is that I hear giggling?

    Yata hey
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    Let me get this straight. Your a cop, and you need to ask what you did right or wrong?

    Hmmmm...
    Always got to be someone questioning the facts.

    Off duty officer - implied LEO but might be security officer. Can't believe that an "off duty" LEO would be required to carry an unloaded weapon even in Kalifornica !

    All right now, who is that I hear giggling?

    Yata hey
    I could be wrong, and your right. He didn't come out and say that he is LEO, so who knows.

    I have a feeling that you might be right.

    ISupportECPD,

    Your funny.

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    ISupportECPD wrote:
    SNIP It is also very interesting that the extra they do have is used to try to lure police, who I am sure they would be the first to call if they needed help, into going through with an “illegal arrest.”
    Welcome to OCDO!!!!

    I don't recall any luring.

    Open carry is the exercise of a fundamental human right. CCW holders are exercising a privilege, not a right. If one must ask government permission to carry, its no longer a right. Thus, open carry is all that is left of the carry prong of "keep and bear arms."

    While openly carrying (OCing), that is to say while exercising an enumerated right, a certain number of us have been illegally detained. A few illegally arrested.

    Some police have shown themselves to be opponents of this enumerated right. They are a special opponent in that they have powers that other opponents do not have, Sarah Brady for example.

    Thus we are very alert for police. And ready to fight back effectively after the encounter.

    I'd be just fine if I never had a police officer bother me in regard to my OC'd gun.

    However, even luring would be fine with me. I'd rather an opponent of rights expose himself and get handled when he runs into one of us, than that he continues perpetrating his violations of the 4th Amendment on others. I very much doubt thatcertain police officers we've run into decided to makean OCer the first time in his career he violated a citizen's 4th Amendment rights.

    Rights are rights are rights are rights. They require no justification. They are absolutely vital to our society, which is another way of saying government respect for them is absolutely vital.

    I demand police respect rightsto the utmost.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    ISupportECPD (the one post wonder) wrote:
    It is also very interesting that the extra (time) they do have is used to try to lure police, who I am sure they would be the first to call if they needed help, into going through with an “illegal arrest.”
    Are you suggesting that by excersizing a right cannonizedin the Bill of Rights, that any one of us is luring police into commiting resources to extra-legal purposes and enforcement of hunches and best guesses? Is it a waste of time to correct abusive authorities, even unintentional ones?

    Bah- nevermind. It's rhetorical. They're justa drive by threadjacker.




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    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  19. #19
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    I'm surprised people are responding to the troll. Don't feed the trolls - maybe they won't come back. Just ignore the blatantly stupid people.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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    Don't Tread On Me.

  20. #20
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    ISupportECPD wrote:
    First and foremost, I would like to say that it is great that so many people have so much extra time on their hands that they are able to form an organization and webpage while the rest of us struggle to find or keep work in the struggling economy. It is also very interesting that the extra they do have is used to try to lure police, who I am sure they would be the first to call if they needed help, into going through with an “illegal arrest.”



    As far as the “I was arrested in El Cajon” story is concerned, I would think that a story that is supposed to make such a great statement would have been run through spell check at least once. It is hard to make an argument look or sound educated when basic words such as arguing (not argueing), experience (not exprience), and according (not occording), among many others, are misspelled multiple times throughout the “story.”


    This. Plus, why do people feel the need to act like cops when they're not? I don't get it..if you want to be a cop, join the damn PD...


    It confuses me that, as the writer of the story who claims to be a LEO, why this issue would pertain to him at all since even off duty officers are allowed to carry loaded firearms at all times. It makes me think that he is not really a “LEO” and perhaps only works for a private security branch. I also thought that it was illegal to claim to be a police officer when you are not one.



    It also confuses me that, if the writer is indeed a LEO (which I am still not convinced of), why he would want to belittle the department that he “grew up with” since they “know me and know what I do for a living.” Of all people, he would know what true law enforcement officers do and deal with everyday and the idea that he feels it necessary to create one more call for service is disgusting. People are actually experiencing life and death emergencies while he is taking resources to test the system. If he feels that the department needs to be educated, there are many respectful and tactful ways to go about this besides posting degrading stories.



    I encourage the task of protecting our given rights but I also think there is a way to go about it looking more educated and being a little more tactful than this writer.



    I will quote the disclaimer that is throughout pages on this website and say, “All advice posted on this board should be considered nothing more than hearsay. Even if a poster identifies themselves as an attorney, law enforcement official or expert in a given field, there is no way to verify that fact. Therefore, any and all advice you glean from this forum should be independently verified!”



    In addition, my needed “membership” to this organization in order to post a response will be duly cancelled.

  21. #21
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    SNIP Don't feed the trolls - maybe they won't come back. Just ignore the blatantly stupid people.
    I agree.

    I'm just not convinced he's a troll. Plenty of us arrived here with ideas inculcated by years in public schools and the treacherous media. Add in the police public-relations spin machine and I can understand why someone would feel indignant about not supporting all but the most malicious police.

    It costs me little to lay out some fundamental premises. Small price to pay to possibly win a new ally in the game for freedom.

    I have learned my lesson, though. I won't spend a lot of time trying convince them like I have before. One or two posts. Enough to get a receptive mind thinking. After that, I'm back to defending my quotes against Grapeshot's mangling.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Enough to get a receptive mind thinking. After that, I'm back to defending my quotes against Grapeshot's mangling.
    So nice to know that I've gotten your attention. That means your leaving someone else alone. BTW - that's me right behind you.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
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    ISupportECPD wrote:
    First and foremost, I would like to say that it is great that so many people have so much extra time on their hands that they are able to form an organization and webpage while the rest of us struggle to find or keep work in the struggling economy. It is also very interesting that the extra they do have is used to try to lure police, who I am sure they would be the first to call if they needed help, into going through with an “illegal arrest.”

    Hilarious. I open carry too. The struggling economy is primarily the fault of government. It's too much to explain in this forum but just know that I've studied behavioral economics, history, the Constitution and monetary policy in great depth and given the time and a receptive mind, I could demonstrate to you what the government has done to create this mess, and what they're doing that will make it worse. Governmentis practically solely responsible for what's going on. Now that you know my position on the causes of the "struggling economy" do you really think that a government agent would be the first person I'd call if I needed help? Ahahahaaaaaa!!!



    As far as the “I was arrested in El Cajon” story is concerned, I would think that a story that is supposed to make such a great statement would have been run through spell check at least once. It is hard to make an argument look or sound educated when basic words such as arguing (not argueing), experience (not exprience), and according (not occording), among many others, are misspelled multiple times throughout the “story.”

    Yeah, and your grammar is not so hot either. Just sayin'.



    It also confuses me that, if the writer is indeed a LEO (which I am still not convinced of), why he would want to belittle the department that he “grew up with” since they “know me and know what I do for a living.” Of all people, he would know what true law enforcement officers do and deal with everyday and the idea that he feels it necessary to create one more call for service is disgusting. People are actually experiencing life and death emergencies while he is taking resources to test the system. If he feels that the department needs to be educated, there are many respectful and tactful ways to go about this besides posting degrading stories.

    Yeah. It's interesting and a travesty that for the people who live under the law, ignorance of the law is no defense. But for those who enforce the law, well, they don't really have to know it. Further, are you claiming that these numerous officers were given a choice between responding to a life or death call and "hey, there is a guy wearing a sidearm doing nothing but trying on sunglasses...his gun might leap out of the holster at any minute, sprout legs, and run around pulling its own trigger" and they chose the guy shopping? Please.



    I encourage the task of protecting our given rights but I also think there is a way to go about it looking more educated and being a little more tactful than this writer.

    This sentence speaks volumes. See, these rights are not "given". Rights do not come from government. They do not come from other men. They come from God, or barring that, they are inherent in being a human being. The Constitution does not grant rights to people. It guarantees rights to people. It only grants specific, limited powers to government. The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are not the only rights that people have. They have other rights too, just about anything you can imagine that does not infringe on the rights of other people. That's what the ninth amendment means. The strictly limited powers granted to government in the Constitution are the only powers that the federal government legitimately has. That's what the tenth amendment means. If you believe that there is a better way to protect the rights you believe you have been "given" can you tell me what you think you're doing, besides voting for Obama, to protect them? I think you might be happier moving to a socialist nation elsewhere. Leave America to the free men it was intended for.

    PS. It was the police who were not tactful. The educated guy in this scenario was the OC'er. The police hadn't a clue.


    In addition, my needed “membership” to this organization in order to post a response will be duly cancelled.

    Don't go away angry. Just go.

  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    I would make a complaint, just to document the situation. The officers obviously need some additional training, a formal complaint might get this done.
    +1 to that. Definitely initiate some level of formal complaint from your perspective to document this grievous mistake by El Cajon PD. I'd probably also obtain their documents from this encounter via the freedom of information act.

    I'm glad you walked away without charges being filed, although I wonder what the argument between the DA attorneys was all about.

    I think if it was me in your shoes, I'd be a lot quieter than you were. I'd give them the initial "Am I being detained?" line to make them justify their actions for my voice recorder, and after that I'd promptly stop talking.

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    sorry, I don't buy the story..I call BS

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