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Thread: The Swiss might be giving up their arms

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    From http://www.dailypress.com/news/natio...0,943350.story

    It will be interesting to see what comes next.

    Swiss to vote on controls that would end tradition of keeping army guns in private homes By Associated Press12:25 PM EST, February 23, 2009 GENEVA (AP) — Campaigners said Monday they have collected enough signatures to force a referendum in Switzerland on whether to confine army weapons to military compounds.

    Service in the country's militia army is compulsory for men, and conscripts have to take their guns home between call-ups.

    "Almost every day a person commits suicide with a firearm in Switzerland," said Josef Lang, a parliament member for the Green Party who is campaigning for the proposal alongside the Social Democrats, rights groups and others.

    The referendum, a date for which has yet to be set, would also ask voters to decide whether to set up a countrywide firearms register and forbid citizens from buying particularly dangerous guns, such as pump-action rifles or automatic weapons, for personal use.


    It goes far beyond a 2007 law that requires military ammunition to be stored on base — a move that was seen by many as the first step to dismantling the guns-at-home tradition.

    Anita Fetz, a lawmaker for the Social Democrat Party, said a register would lead to more security and was worth the cost, which opponents claim would be immense. "Every single car and every cow in Switzerland are registered. Of course that costs something," she said.


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    Say it ain't so! Damn liberals are everywhere...

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    The Swiss are the last bastion of firearms rights in europe. I hope they do not fall to socialism on this issue like they have on so many other issues. (Finland has gone by the wayside concerning firearms as well.)

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    I have to wonder, just how many of those suicides were committed using a military issued weapon? And just how do these morons define a "dangerous" weapon?

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    Ummm, shouldn't a weapon be dangerous? What is the actual Per capita Suicide rate and how does that compare to other places with tougher restrictions on "dangerous" weapons? Bleh.

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    Regular Member MI-copperhead's Avatar
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    A dangerous weapon is any one that can be used to run the socialists out of power. I hope the Swiss arent so lazy that they will fall for this but I suppose they are.
    "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death !" Patrick Henry

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    It is a sad day for the Swiss. I hope the Swiss have at least a semblance of common sense left to them...

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I have to wonder, just how many of those suicides were committed using a military issued weapon?
    Probably most of them.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I have to wonder, just how many of those suicides were committed using a military issued weapon?
    Probably most of them.
    So you stick a select fire weapon under your chin and send a 3rd burst into your head....makes perfect sense to me.


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    Does gun ownership really lead to a high suicide rate in Switzerland? Check out the countries that have total gun control:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate

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    shad0wfax wrote:
    The Swiss are the last bastion of firearms rights in europe. I hope they do not fall to socialism on this issue like they have on so many other issues. (Finland has gone by the wayside concerning firearms as well.)
    Consider the ethnic make-up of Switzerland:

    1. Germans, who are genetically disposed towards law, order, rules, and regulations.

    2. French, who love socialism.

    3. Italians, who waver back and forth between the two.



    I'm amazed they've lasted this long. Of course, New Hampshire has gone from two centuries of stubborn independence and small government, to total Democrat control, in four years.



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    Hm, I don't think the russians can even have guns and they're number three.

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    GWbiker wrote:
    Does gun ownership really lead to a high suicide rate in Switzerland? Check out the countries that have total gun control:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate
    using this list i can make a very good argument that places that are cold several months of the year and have reduced sunlight hours , cause suicide

    add to that mountainous regions , also cold and developed nationsyou know essentialy living the easy life.

    clearly if haiti has no suicide hot, humid and full of some of the most deplorable living conditions on earth at least the western hemisphere africa is tought competition for badliving conditions , having it easy or being cold clearly stand out as the primary reasons to commit sucide



    this is in no way poking fun at a very serios metal disease , just at people who feel the tool is the issue not the user.





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    Ya know, I gotta figure those who have military training could easily figure out a way to kill themselves with or without guns. :?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    What a great idea! Now we just need to ban razors, trains, buses, water, rope, electricity, pills, and high places and we'll be on our way to stopping all the suicides.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    shad0wfax wrote:
    The Swiss are the last bastion of firearms rights in europe. I hope they do not fall to socialism on this issue like they have on so many other issues. (Finland has gone by the wayside concerning firearms as well.)
    Finland is also gun friendly.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Funny thing tho', you don't need a firearm to commit suicide as we all know. South Korea has the strictest gun control I know of. It is a death penalty for any citizen caught with a firearm, which the KNP (Korean National Police) may execute on the spot. The KNP are paramilitary forces and have total authority. As was aforementioned you don't need a firearm to commit sideways (suicide) just the will. Guess the Swiss would feel better if they were all jumping out of 30 story windows.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson

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    An individual bent on suicide will complete the act by whatever means is available.

    Maybe they could accomplish the same thing (nothing) by simply making suicide illegal.

    Again a proposal that doesn't do anything to solve the problem but punishes good people and would make them criminals.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Funny thing is, in most states suicide is already illegal.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson

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    Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.:?

    (line #27 of "40 Reasons For Gun Control")

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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    Why not try and figure out why people are commiting suicide instead??? DUH!!!!
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    Better yet, Hey you Swissers' I'll take that Dangerous weapon off of your hands!!!!

    But as to what is a dangerous weapon, I do believe England said that the Swiss Jacket
    with the mini swiss army knife in the custom pocket was dangerous.:what:

    At least with them dissarmed Isreal can now attack and confiscate the stolen loot
    from WWII.

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    Anyone else started to get a little nervous that in our lifetime, big brother may come a knocking?

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    suntzu wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I have to wonder, just how many of those suicides were committed using a military issued weapon?
    Probably most of them.
    So you stick a select fire weapon under your chin and send a 3rd burst into your head....makes perfect sense to me.
    I actually know a guy who did just that.

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    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    Hm, I don't think the russians can even have guns and they're number three.
    Actually, since you mentioned... I don't know if anyone even cares, but since we occasionly discuss gun laws in other countries i decided to post a little info on Russian gun laws.

    Generally, Russian gun laws are somewhat similar to those in Shitcago or DC.



    1) Long guns

    Anyrussian citizen over 18 years oldcan own a smooth bore long gun. The purchase and posession is subject to a permit issued by local police on shall-issue basis to anyone without a criminal or mental health record. In order to recieve a permit an applicant should:

    • Pass nationwide criminal background check performed by police
    • Get a certificate from local Mental Health Board stating that he/she never been treated for any violence-related mental issues and registered as a mentally disabled person
    • Get a certificate from local Drug Enforcement Board stating that he/she neverbeentreated for drug addiction and never been registered as a drug addict. This one also incudes a short interview with a doctor which may result indrug test if you cause any suspicion
    • Vision exam to verify that he/she is not legally blind

    Actually, the same exact requirments (less thecriminal background check)are in place for driver's license application in Russia.

    After getting the permit, applicant can go to the store and purchase any smooth-bore long gun. I'm pretty sure that you need a separate permit for each gun, but i might be wrong on this one. Within several days after the purchase, person must go to the range and shoot several rounds (don't remeber how many)and submit spent casings along with the registration application in order to register the firearm. Safe storage (not necessarily a safe, can be a lockable box or cabinet) is also reqired but rarely enforced.

    After 5 years of owning a smooth-borelonggun without any violatons, one can purchase a rifle, subject to the same permit process.

    Transportaion is only allowed unloaded and taken-down in locked container and only between place ofresidence and range/store. Obtaining a hunting permit (it's not a license to bag game like in US, it's really a permit to hunt which is relatively easy to get) will basically allow transportation anywhere, but also unloaded, taken-down and locked. Carry is prohibited alltogether, with exceptions for carrying in one's own property and while hunting.

    2) Handguns

    Posession of handguns is prohibited alltogether, except for sword personell of government LE agencies and employees of registered private security agencies while on duty. The only other exception are people whorecieved a personalizedengraved pistol for outstanding service issued by the government - normally it only happens to retired high ranking military and LE personell. I might be wrong, but i think they are allowed to carry it too.

    3) Other restricted defensive devices

    One can buy a so-called "traumatic pistol" which is generally a copy of a real handgun that can only shoot rubber bullets or a "gas pistol" which shoots tear gas/pepper spray mix(the most popular ones are Makarov clone whichare made by the same company as the real Makarov). Purchase is subject to a permit issued on "shall-issue" basis with the same reqirements as the long gun permit described above. However, this permit will allow the applicant to carry it concealed pretty much in any public place except usual secured areas (government buldings, courts, airports, etc.) and use it in self-defense. Permit to carry is recognized nationwide. The effectivness ofa "traumatic pistol"is at best doubtful, especially in cold Russian winter when all thick winter clothes people wear will reduce the impact by quite a lot. The "gas pistol" is pretty much useless alltogether - pepper spray would be a much safer, cheaper and easier option at this point.

    4) Other unrestricted defensive devices

    All other defensive devices listed below are sold over the counter, without permits, background checks or IDs, to anyone who appears to be an adult (technically you have to be 18 or over, but no one ever checks). They include:

    • Pepper spray (OC, artificial equalent of OC, CS, OC+CS, OC+CN are all legal)
    • Stun guns
    • Knives with blades less thatabout 3"

    All these can be carried without any permits and used for self defense anywhere in the country with the same exceptions of secure areas.



    5) Self defense laws

    Generally, Russian law allows armed self devense. Defense of ones home with a firearm is also allowed. However, case law is really terrible in this regard and courts tend to over-enforce the "proportionality of force" requirement. In short, if you kill someone in self devense, even with bare hands or a household item, prepare to spend some time in prison, unless you are a disabled young pregnant woman who was attacked by a gang armed with full automatic weapons. Therefore, between complicated licensing process and potential legal problems, the most popular defensive items are a combination of pepper spray, stun guns, one's ownfists that can punch and legsthat can run fast. Spray/taze-punch-GTFO is probably the most effective self defense technique which is legally advisable in Russia...

    Sorry for a long post, but if anyone was interested, it sums it up. Maybe moderators can move it to "other countries" section of the forum as a separate topic.



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