I think I've figured it out.

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I had occasion to eat lunch with a friend in a local Mexican restaurant recently. They serve beer, so I took off my long-tailed flannel shirt because carrying a concealed handgun is illegal in a restaurant that serves alcoholic drinks here. There was one guy in the place who clearly took offense by my presence with my modest, relatively inconspicuous Sig 229 on my belt.

I was thinking about this, and I've thought, I've only seen men react that way. And by far the stories I've heard about people causing a fuss over someone with a gun are all about men who react to other men carrying guns. They don't react that way if the man is clearly a cop. And if I had to guess, I'd say the guy who was giving me the hairy eyeball was ex-navy.

So, having considered the matter for some time, I think I've got a handle on it, at least as a partial explanation: they take it as a challenge to their manhood. They don't react to cops because cops are not in the same category they see themselves in, so that's not a threat. But if I (a fat old geezer) come into the restaurant with a gun, they're suddenly worried about who's top dog. I think it's a hormone related mental disorder that had some utility in the hunting and gathering world, but is a real problem for folks living in a city. By coming in with a gun, in that guy's mind, I'm saying to him that I'm in charge, that I'm his superior, and that I have the means to effect my will, take his women, and burn down his house.

Too much testosterone.

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Interesting observation.

In reading stories here, I've also noticed that most (if not all) of the time, the person who is OCing and asked to leave an establishment is a man. I don't recall reading one story where an OCing woman was asked to leave a store or restaurant. Could it be that as a woman, no one is concerned that she "thatshe isin charge, that she is his superior, and that she has the means to effect her will, take his women, and burn down his house"??

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Exactly.

I've never heard a single story about a woman freaking out because of someone carrying a gun. I have known of some who were somewhat frightened by the presence of the gun, but I've never heard of any woman taking the same kind of offense because of it.

Nor have I ever heard of a woman carrying causing that reaction.

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Is this kinda like an Alpha Male type of thing?

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DeviousDave wrote:

Is this kinda like an Alpha Male type of thing?

Click to expand...

Right, all males think they are alpha males. Some are justwiser than others.

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Hate to throw a wrench in this, but the only person who has ever challenged my OC was a woman. I'm a fairly good size guy, 6'3", 230lbs (about 10-12 lbs over my "fighting weight" so pretty lean for 40). She was pretty small, maybe 5'3", 120 lbs. She kinda got up in my face (well chest actually) to tell me how afraid she was of me because I had a gun. She wasn't right up on me but definitely in my personal space.

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deepdiver wrote:

Hate to throw a wrench in this, but the only person who has ever challenged my OC was a woman.  I'm a fairly good size guy, 6'3", 230lbs (about 10-12 lbs over my "fighting weight" so pretty lean for 40).  She was pretty small, maybe 5'3", 120 lbs.  She kinda got up in my face (well chest actually) to tell me how afraid she was of me because I had a gun.  She wasn't right up on me but definitely in my personal space.

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I don't see that as a "wrench"; as I said, I thought mine was a partial explanation. You probably came up against someone who was victimized as a child and, being in "victim mode", was confronting the thing that scared her in an aggressive manner. There are probably a dozen other major reasons why people react negatively.

I was puzzled by this phenomenon for a long time. It seemed odd to me, all the rhetoric about how "guns kill people", when the people making all the fuss are the same people who get in their cars and drive too fast, pass in nonpassing lanes (and at blind hills and curves), pass stopped school buses, etc., in a country where cars kill far, far more people than guns do. And cars have no defensive purpose at all, so at least some of the people killed by guns arguably deserved what they got. So, I thought, why all the fuss about a guy carrying a gun in a restaurant, what's the real reason people can't just be cool (assuming the guy's acting like a reasonable person and the gun's in its holster)?

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deepdiver wrote:

Hate to throw a wrench in this, but the only person who has ever challenged my OC was a woman. I'm a fairly good size guy, 6'3", 230lbs (about 10-12 lbs over my "fighting weight" so pretty lean for 40). She was pretty small, maybe 5'3", 120 lbs. She kinda got up in my face (well chest actually) to tell me how afraid she was of me because I had a gun. She wasn't right up on me but definitely in my personal space.

Click to expand...

Maybe she was just an alpha female

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Let me quess. El Tio's in Virginia Gateway?

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Perhaps too the idea that a man (through evolution) has to protect the tribe is why men may be more assertive in challenging an OCer. I'm a man, I have to protect my tribe, I will find out about this strange male carrying a gun (club).

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SouthernBoy wrote:

Let me quess. El Tio's in Virginia Gateway?

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close - El Agave, Warrenton. Have you had experiences in El Tio's like that? (Maybe it's got something to do with jalapeños.)

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Venator wrote:

Perhaps too the idea that a man (through evolution) has to protect the tribe is why men may be more assertive in challenging an OCer.  I'm a man, I have to protect my tribe, I will find out about this strange male carrying a gun (club).

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Sort of like that - though what I don't get is the initial bristling with hostility - more like the reaction of a tomcat to a stranger than that of a dog. It's not just curiosity. It's more like, "I may need to fight this guy and I'm frustrated because he's got an obvious advantage."

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I'm always amused in the irony that some one is SOO afraid of a person wearing a firearm, and SOO worried that they'll go nuts and start randomly shooting, that they feel the need to CONFRONT them.....

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"Suicide by Law Abiding Citizen" I guess. Who says only the cops get the wackos.
Probably after 72 of our virgins the sneaky thief.

But I have been arguing the alpha male thing, as when you don't show fear of the
leo causes a rise in violence from said individual.

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You could take his woman, women if is a polygamist I suppose, but you couldn't burn down the house unless you also had some matches...

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Dustin wrote:

DeviousDave wrote:

Is this kinda like an Alpha Male type of thing?

Click to expand...

Right, all males think they are alpha males. Some are justwiser than others.

Click to expand...

Think? Think???? IKNOW I'm an alpha male.

I've yet to come across anyone that displayed any concern over my gun on my belt. The only questions I've had asked were about what cal and model it was.

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While there just has to be some men who feel their "manhood" is challenged, I suspect the most frequently occurring reasons aresimpler.

1. Irrational fear. And, as soon as they realize you aren't dangerous, they get angry at you. If they thought you might actually be dangerous, they wouldn't approach you.*

2. I imagine somepeoplehave their sense of the-way-things-should-be violated by a visible gun. In a manner of speaking, "How dare you intrude reality into my peaceful world?"

3. Or, "Who are you to push hard onthe illusionof safety I put up for myself so I don't have to face in my mindthe harsh reality that there are bad men who would kill or badly injure me?" Which he lacks the courage to face orhe wouldn't be making the illusion of safety.



*Perhaps a really goodconversational gambit can be derived from this idea.

The store managerasks youto leave your gun outside because another customer complained. "Well, I thinkthe complainer has already proved they know I'm not dangerous. If they thought Iwas, they'dhave pulled the fire alarm to evacuate the store, wouldn't they?"

The snippity ladysays, "Guns are dangerous! You shouldn't be carrying that here."

The OCer responds, "Well, thank you for proving you know I am not dangerous."

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For some men, I think you are correct. Then there are these men.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/julia/gorin030802.asp

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I have had negative reactions from both men and women and probably 50/50 between each. I am referring to actual confrontations and not just rude stares. However, I have noticed that most of the non-verbal negative reactions are from men. The easiest way to notice reactions is when I'm in small restaurants such as fast food joints or coffee shops because people are waiting for their order and more likely to notice someone with a gun as I am also standing around waiting. What I will notice is that when women see the gun and disapprove, they might make an unpleasant facial expression or act a bit nervous but as soon as they express their disapproval non-verbally they forget about it and move on with their conversation or whatever they were doing. Men on the other hand will often not turn away and continue to aggressively stare, make menacing and almost threatening facial expressions as if they are dying for a confrontation, or in some cases get so nervous that they start to shake, stammer, and even cry. Seriously. I have actually seen a couple of men start lightly shaking as one would when getting ready to give a speech (for those who fear public speaking), stammer in their speech although not excessively, and their eyes actually get watery.

I do think that it could be a bit of a male ego issue. It seems like a lot of women actually take a liking to me OCing as they will smile at me and I will smile back and then the girls will giggle/laugh/joke with each other and sometimes they will keep looking back as a form of flirting. One girl even walked up to me one time and said, "That gun is HOT." I believe that a lot of the poor reaction from men often comes from an ego problem combined with poor courtesy to begin with. These people are used to acting inappropriate in various ways such as talking real loud, staring at people, pretending to be real tough, using low-quality vocabulary, discussing mundane, immature, uneducated, or otherwise inappropriate topics in public, and otherwise demonstrate that they lack class. I have noticed in general how people who have class use their intelligence to demonstrate their superiority whereas people who lack class tend to use a persona of toughness to exert that they are superior. Under normal circumstances, they can be jerks in public and nobody would dare tell them to cut their crap out. Unfortunately, when an armed citizen is nearby they now have to straighten up and act civilized because when the armed citizen tells them to quit staring/acting like a child/whatever, they are not going to be in a position to "beat that person up." One example was when I was sitting on a patio with friends at a restaurant and a bunch of gang-banger types were sitting out there acting loud and obnoxious, bouncing around in their seats and not even seated half of the time, and every other word was either four letters or it was "dude, bro, dawg, like, etc." When I got up to get another order, they must have seen my gun because as soon as I sat back down, they suddenly were acting appropriately and civilized to the point that it was a very noticable switch.

Last but not least, I've always wondered as well why if a person truly considers that a man with a gun is dangerous why they would confront the person. It completely defies logic. If I saw someone I believed was unstable and looked like they were about to go postal, the last thing I would do is confront them or aggressively stare at them. The reason is that if that were the case then you would be the first person they would attack. I would think that anyone truly concerned about such an event would instead act as inconspicuous as possible and casually leave the area.