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Thread: Nashua Open Carry PD email

  1. #1
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    UPDATED - My response back

    So I emailed the Nashua PD months ago, about their feelings on an open carry 'picnic'. Finally a week or so ago, Deputy Chief John Seusing responded, more or less asking me to restate the question. He didn't know what I meant by "open carry". My response and then his is as follows:

    John,

    Thank you for responding. No one had yet, and I felt it might have been
    pigeon holed.
    By open carry, I am referring to firearms, in proper arming status,
    holstered, in plane view, on a persons body. And have a picnic/BBQ in
    such a manner. The common public as a whole greatly misunderstands
    firearms, and seems to think that if you own one, you are a criminal, or
    will be a criminal. Open carry is legal, without a concealed carry
    permit. This event would be done as a public awareness, that
    responsible, law abiding citizens own firearms, and can carry one,
    without an incident, and it is also a way for people who feel like
    they're the only one trying to always keep a firearm hidden under a
    jacket (legally, with a permit!), and not scare the horses, for those
    people to get together and realize they're not alone, and make some
    friends.... to come together as a community. And I, we... would greatly
    appreciate the PDs support, preferably open, public support, in this
    event.

    I hope this answers any questions you had, and I look forward to a
    response from you, and thank you for your time.


    HIS RESPONSE:



    Mr. B,

    The Nashua Police Department is certainly aware of your right to carry a
    firearm even in a public setting under most circumstances. We are aware
    of that and have no intention of interfering with that. However we do
    not support or advocate the type of gathering you are planning and it's
    intended purpose. We understand you have a legal right to do it but feel
    your intended gathering at a city park will do nothing but cause alarm
    to many citizens who go there to enjoy the park with their children. We
    do not feel it is in the best interest of anyone and will cause more
    concern and alarm to many families.

    Should you wish to continue with your intentions I would request that
    you let me know where and when you are planning such an event. If you
    have any further questions please feel free to contact me. Thank you.




    Deputy Chief John Seusing
    Uniform Operations
    Nashua Police Department
    Panther Drive, Nashua, N.H.
    03061






    Respectful, polite, acknowledged the right, and really would prefer it not be exercised.






    John,

    Thanks again for responding. It's very appreciated.
    The point that someone legally carrying a firearm, and showing no signs of threat, scares people, is the exact problem why we think open carry should be more practiced..... because the public has a misunderstood fear of firearms; firearms are bad, firearms kill, firearms are unsafe. And I would think as a deputy chief of police, you understand that fallacy as well as I do. Firearms are mechanical devices. They don't prefer to do bad, they do not make the choice to kill, and they are only as unsafe as you allow them to be. The public understanding these facts; that law abiding, responsible citizens can own and carry firearms without committing a crime, or without "accidentally" shooting someone is a big thing. And hopefully, curiosity will lead people to ask questions, so they can be educated, so it can be explained to them how weapons can be carried safely, responsible, without incident, and without breaking the law. Since you mentioned children, that weapons can be rendered safe and stored safely in homes with children, and many people at the
    BBQ would be living proof of that. Also, that one of the largest problems believed to be associated with children mishandling firearms, is their sheltering of them, and lack of understanding about them. Every parent has the right to raise their children how they want, I'm not interfering with that, and I'm not a parent myself. But my close friends who do, teach their children discipline and safety. Their children know that weapons can be dangerous, they know what can happen if they're mishandled, and were they to find themselves near a firearm without adult supervision, they would not be on the news later that night for shooting their friend on accident. And the more children (at the right age and maturity, to be decided by the parents) who are aware and disciplined, the better. Even a parent makes the choice to not educate their children, or feel their children are not yet mature enough, firearms can still be stored, safely in a home, 'child proof'. And the more adults and parents who teach and practice firearm safety and responsibility, the better. And all of this could be helped by public awareness and understanding, and the path that leads to there would be much less rocky with your help. Thank you again for your time.

    -Wendel
    B


    Now I'm just waiting for a response.
    Last edited by WendelBrue; 07-17-2012 at 01:54 PM.

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    I agree you should have followed up with just a note that you would
    just like to let him know about the gathering so he can inform anyone
    who calls in that he is aware of the BBQ going on in the park.
    Never hurts to let the locals know that there are citizens enjoing the
    last few months of freadom, before the carbon taxes kills BBQ's and powder sales.

    Maybe hint at the donuts being free to all leo would not be high on my list
    of info to disclose.

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    I got an auto response email saying the deputy chief would be out of his office until March 2nd. So no response is expected any earlier than that.

    I didn't give him any dates or even locations, especially since there haven't been any set in stone yet. I don't plan to give him more information than I already have. Based on his no BS response, any information thattheyget on the matter will not be put to our support.

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    WendelBrue wrote:
    UPDATED - My response back

    ...we... would greatly appreciate the PDs support, preferably open, public support, in this event...


    HIS RESPONSE:

    Mr. Brueckner,

    ...However we do not support or advocate the type of gathering you are planning and it's intended purpose...
    I think you were asking a bit much by soliciting the department's support for your outing, and because you opened that door, the Chief did what I would normally not condone - expressed an opinion about the desirability or lack thereof of a legal action.

    When you have your picinic, you can hope, expect, and if necessary, demand that his department be professional in dealing with your group, and be restrained in expressing his personal opinion about your actions - but do you really want the police department to be in a position, with your or any other group, to grant approval or disapproval by offering a publicopinion? Such a circumstance would bedangerous for the rights of all of us.

    IMHO, your goals are laudable and praiseworthy, but I think you need to pursue them by offering information about gun safety, rights, etc.at your get-together, not by seekingthe Chief's seal of approval.

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    I agree that the real work will be done by information provided to any that ask for it, at the BBQ. And I tried to make it clear to the deputy chief, without being rude, that I wasn't asking for permission to do it, but support. And support, by the PD, would make the whole thing go smoother, because more people will probably be calling the PD asking questions, than coming to us. So, the PD being willing to inform people of their rights and that this is all being done safely, would be a big help. Especially if it's compared to "yes, we are aware of the gathering, we can't do anything about it, but if we could we would"

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    WendelBrue wrote:
    I agree that the real work will be done by information provided to any that ask for it, at the BBQ. And I tried to make it clear to the deputy chief, without being rude, that I wasn't asking for permission to do it, but support. And support, by the PD, would make the whole thing go smoother, because more people will probably be calling the PD asking questions, than coming to us. So, the PD being willing to inform people of their rights and that this is all being done safely, would be a big help. Especially if it's compared to "yes, we are aware of the gathering, we can't do anything about it, but if we could we would"

    My emphasis above.

    I can understand that, but in his view it's not desirable for him to vouch for any such thing. How could he?



    You're tacitly seeking his endorsement ("Yes, we're aware" vs "We would if we could"), and it's not going to be forthcoming.

    I'm not suggesting there shouldn't have been outreach on your part, just that it should have been informational rather than approval or support-seeking.



    I look forward to an"after-action"summary of your picnic!I wish I lived close.

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    Enough letter-writing. When's the picnic??!

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    haha, well it hasn't fully been planned yet. The involvement and participation of everyone on the forum would be appreciated.

    I was thinking of doing it at Greeley Park, Nashua. I just got back from Iraqistan 72 hours ago, and won't be back in NH till the end of March, first half of April. BUT, with the way the winter has been in the Northeast, that'll probably still be pretty cold for people standing around at a BBQ for hours. Next time I would be in NH shouldn't be till end of June.... we could make it a pre or post 4th of July theme.... celebrating freedom and all.

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    WendelBrue wrote:
    haha, well it hasn't fully been planned yet. The involvement and participation of everyone on the forum would be appreciated.

    I was thinking of doing it at Greeley Park, Nashua. I just got back from Iraqistan 72 hours ago, and won't be back in NH till the end of March, first half of April. BUT, with the way the winter has been in the Northeast, that'll probably still be pretty cold for people standing around at a BBQ for hours. Next time I would be in NH shouldn't be till end of June.... we could make it a pre or post 4th of July theme.... celebrating freedom and all.
    Around July works for me. It might also be good to have it at a location a little more central.

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    Mr. B,

    I certainly agree that firearms by themselves are not dangerous, but
    rather the improper handling of them or use of them by criminals. As I
    stated previously we know that citizens generally can possess and carry
    a firearm in public for all to see. The Nashua Police Department
    recognizes that and respects that. We however, do not feel that
    "educating" the public in the manner you intend on is the proper way to
    do it. I agree that one being properly educated on any topic is
    important, but so is the way in which one gets educated or chooses to
    get educated. I think we can agree to disagree on whether your method of
    education is proper.

    As I requested in my previous email, if you choose to have a picnic/BBQ
    at one of our parks I would ask that you let me know in advance. I make
    that request because I would like to prepare our communications center
    with the anticipation of numerous calls of concern from the public, as
    well as informing our patrol officers. I believe being informed ahead of
    time could alleviate any possible over reaction by anyone taking a call
    from the public or an officer being told that there is a person/persons
    armed with a firearm in a city park.

    Again, should you have any other questions or concerns please don't
    hesitate to contact me.





    Deputy Chief John Seusing
    Uniform Operations
    Last edited by WendelBrue; 07-17-2012 at 01:52 PM.

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    WendelBrue wrote:
    As I requested in my previous email, if you choose to have a picnic/BBQ
    at one of our parks I would ask that you let me know in advance. I make
    that request because I would like to prepare our communications center
    with the anticipation of numerous calls of concern from the public, as
    well as informing our patrol officers. I believe being informed ahead of
    time could alleviate any possible over reaction by anyone taking a call
    from the public or an officer being told that there is a person/persons
    armed with a firearm in a city park.

    Deputy Chief John Seusing
    Uniform Operations
    I think that is completely fair and I would be happy to adhere to his polite request. If we demand that they not harass people for open carrying, a little communication to let them know shouldn't be a problem.

    Now, I am not ok with asking permission in general, but for an event like this, I think it's warranted for the first time so they can educate their staff. For subsequent events, I don't think a call will be necessary as their staff should already be educated on the law (and it's their responsibility after all).

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    I completely agree. It was a large curiosity of mine to see how he would feel about it, and I tried to make it respectfully clear that permission was not what I was asking for, and that I was well aware we have the right to do so without their consent. But a heads up, for a 'first timers' thing, I think is polite and would only be cordial.... even every time. Too many people are trying to fight the police, instead of work with them. Until the problem with the public is resolved, open carrying will get phone calls to 911..... they don't have the authority to stop us from doing it, even if they had a years notice... so giving a few days heads up, to not be alarmed that there are "OMG MEN WITH GUNS IN THE PARK!"........ We should work with the police, not against them... for as long as the police don't infringe our rights.

    However, if the get-together isn't going to be in Nashua.... this is communication with the Nashua PD. Any suggestions on a different city?

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    WendelBrue wrote:
    I completely agree. It was a large curiosity of mine to see how he would feel about it, and I tried to make it respectfully clear that permission was not what I was asking for, and that I was well aware we have the right to do so without their consent.

    However, if the get-together isn't going to be in Nashua.... this is communication with the Nashua PD. Any suggestions on a different city?
    Manchester or Concord might be more central for folks further North and on the Seacoast.

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    I'm okay with Manchester, though I don't any parks there.... not sure how many people attending would be North enough to plan it in Concord.

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    I wanted to pass along this information that was received when we held a OC picnic at a county park here in Washington. You might be able to use some of the info. Check out the thread for other useful info as well. We had a wonderful time and no one went screaming from the park in fear.
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=55


    From: Gary Simpson To: Cam Mandeville; Clinton Bergeron CC: all Patrol Its' (Cam-John-John); All Patrol Sergeants; Michael Shannon
    Date: 7/9/2008 3:24 PM
    Subject: Firearms "open carry" Sunday July 13th???

    While I only have limited information, I believe you need to be as fully aware of a potential situation which may occur this weekend. A group advocating the ability to carry firearms openly in public is starting to become active in the Kitsap County area. They advocate that it is a citizen's right to carry a firearm openly on their person in public. Confrontations with this group in other parts of the country have occurred, and courts decisions have come about because of them. The most recent court opinion supports this right. We have received clarification from our Prosecutor's Office as to our response to complaints regarding this issue in county facilities, specifically county parks. Seme police departments have suggested that these groups want a physical confrontation with Saw enforcement, while some of the interviews and web site information indicate the groups don't want trouble. Since we have not had an opportunity to visit with them about it, we really don't know what their attitudes towards local law enforcement are. I suggest that you take time to review the web site http://www.opencarry.org and read some of the discussions, and view the interviews. The section titled 'Our Forum' has a section at the bottom for Washington, which you may find interesting. The discussions will give you an idea of the group's interests and ideas about open carry laws and restrictions throughout the country. The local group is planning on a picnic to be held this weekend, possibly at the Long Lake County Park on Sunday. The group is expected to be carrying firearms in an 'open carry' fashion, which I expected will cause some concerns from the general public. We expect that if this occurs, we will be receiving 911 calls from citizens, expecting law enforcement to respond. Carrying or displaying a weapon in an open carry fashion is legal, even in light of the fact there is a county ordinance prohibiting this. The county ordinance is not enforceable. We will not confront or take any law enforcement action regarding people (adults) who display weapons in an 'open carry' manner. However, it should be noted that while it is legal to carry firearms in the public this way, it is not legal to be intoxicated or drinking while doing so, practicing quick draw actions, pointing them at people or in a dangerous manner, shooting or any actions which are dangerous to the public. Concealing a firearm without a CPL is also illegal. Open carry is OK, concealing it requires a CPL.

    Info from Claire Bradley for the Prosecutors's Office:
    I read Jackie's memo from last September wherein she outlined her conclusion that prohibiting firearms in the county parks violates RCW 9.41.290 and .300. Fve looked at the Code and done some very cursory research myself. I obviously agree with Jackie-- cant arrest for possessing a firearm in the county park. However, certain other Kitsap Code provision as well as state and federal laws still apply. 1. Discharge of any weapon in the park is crime that we will prosecute. 2. Obviously, these people must comply with all concealed weapons permits and carry the weapons In a manner consistent with state law).
    In light of this expected picnic, for those deputies assigned to work the south end, I ask that patrol checks are done throughout the day to see if this group is in fact having a picnic. If they are, advise CenCom and the supervisors of it. Please see that the line deputies take the time to stop and visit with the group to see what they are doing, what they are trying to accomplish and become familiar with what is occurring at the time. This is not to suggest anyone becomes confrontational or engage in any kind of Second Amendment Rights argument. If possible, and if the persons are willing, please solicit the groups contact information so we can discuss further actions of this nature with them (or a spokesman). We have already attempted to obtain an email dialog with one person, and no response has occurred. We do not want to engage in confrontational actions with them, but to understand their concerns, while upholding the rights of all people and groups. In the event the group does gather at a park and 911 calls are received, also take the time to explain to the callers who might be present that the actions being taken by 'open carry' individuals is legal. -----------------------------------------------------------
    From: Cam Mandevilte To: Bob Millard; Clinton Bergeron; Jim Porter; Jim White; Jon Brossel; ... CC: Gary Simpson; John Gese; John Sprague
    Date: 7/9/2008 4:46 PM
    Subject: Fwd: Firearms "open carry" Sunday July 13th???
    Attachments: Firearms "open carry" Sunday July 13th???
    Shift Supervisors— I have placed a hard copy of the Prosecutor's Office opinion on restricting the open carrying of firearms in County Parks in each of your mailboxes. In a nutshell, State Law prohibits this restriction. Firearms are allowed in County Parks by State Law. Please read the document that I have left in your boxes and share the information with your people. Thanks for your immediate attention to this matter. CamM. #9 -----------------------------------------------------------------

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    That pretense is the same as NH. State law allows open carry in public places, with few municipal exceptions, etc... parks not being one of those. So a cities or counties restrictions of firearms in parks, is obsolete... they don't hold the power to do so.

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    WendelBrue wrote:
    So a cities or counties restrictions of firearms in parks, is obsolete... they don't hold the power to do so.
    A better word than obsolete in this instance is invalid/null and void. Though they are definitely obsolete as well.

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    Hold your picnic and have fun. Why do you feel you need to seek the active support of the police? They're basically saying they can't stop you. Heck, on the day, call them and say we're over here having an OCpicnic and burgers are free for on duty personel



    San Diego, Ca. Open Carry on 2-28-09 (no police permission needed)

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    When writing to police, media, etc try to keep in mind
    having a proofreader, even high school dropouts like me
    can spot obvious mistakes and it does not look good.
    By open carry, I am referring to firearms, in proper arming status, holstered, in plane view, on a persons body. And have a picnic/BBQ in such a manner. The common public as a whole greatly misunderstands
    What kind of plane are we talking about? B52's? Cessna"s ? C130's?

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    chrsjhnsn wrote:
    When writing to police, media, etc try to keep in mind
    having a proofreader, even high school dropouts like me
    can spot obvious mistakes and it does not look good.
    By open carry, I am referring to firearms, in proper arming status, holstered, in plane view, on a persons body. And have a picnic/BBQ in such a manner. The common public as a whole greatly misunderstands
    What kind of plane are we talking about? B52's? Cessna"s ? C130's?
    P-38 Lightnings, baby!!

    or as the Germans called them - "fork tailed devils".

    The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain (or is it plane?) LOL

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    I was actually speaking of c-17s.

    But to put your worrying at ease, what I copied for the forum was the pre-proof read, and not what I sent to the deputy. So in case the deputy would have been confused about planes landing on Main St, he can sleep at ease.

    Slight digression though, any input more helpful?

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    Especially in a state like NH, you never need to approach something like this as if you're asking for permission, nor even input. A heads-up notice to the local police is always a good idea for the reason stated: they'll know what's happening if they get a flurry of calls about people carrying guns in the park.


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    if we were to go ahead with planning a picnic....

    which parkin nashua would we pick..

    Myself,i wouldn't have bothered sending that e-mail out.when we had a open carry litter pick-up in Hampton beach,we didn't bother sending a e-mail to the Hampton PD(at least i think we didn't and we didn't have one issue with Police)

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    The email is already sent, so there's not much discussing philosophy on it.


    If the picnic would happen in Nashua, I'd suggest Greeley Park. It's large, open, has a grilling and picnic table area, (which incidently is on the oppositeside of the children area so parents that don't want theirs around guns, don't have to feel like they're being ambushed).

    Can people who are reading this, and would be planning on attending (time frame in July);list where they're from, so if it's not to be hosted in Nashua, we can find a central location.

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    WendelBrue wrote:
    The email is already sent, so there's not much discussing philosophy on it.


    If the picnic would happen in Nashua, I'd suggest Greeley Park. It's large, open, has a grilling and picnic table area, (which incidently is on the oppositeside of the children area so parents that don't want theirs around guns, don't have to feel like they're being ambushed).

    Can people who are reading this, and would be plan on attending (time frame in July);list where they're from, so if it's not to be hosted in Nashua, we can find a central location.
    I'm from Concord. Nashua isn't too far for me to come. And frankly, you're the organizer so you should do what works best for you.

    There are lots of alternative forums on which we could spread the word about this.

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