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Thread: Lets take this city property thing a little further

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    Ok, so it has been decided that the Norfolk Scope is city property right? Well we all know at the entrance before going into the gun show there is an officer waiting to make sure your weopon is unloaded and they zip-tie the action to make it unusable. I have never met an officer with any attitude at all, they have always been courteous and accommodating. Now, with that being said, if you state you are on city property and that you will not disarm can you be arrested or denied entrance? This is just a theoretical question. I for one do not want to make a scene especially around such fellowship, but at the same time aren't we kinda doing exactly what we say we are fighting against? Seems almost hypocritical (myself included) for anyone to say give merit to Danbus but not apply the lessons learned by his plight.

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    jermflux wrote:
    Ok, so it has been decided that the Norfolk Scope is city property right? Well we all know at the entrance before going into the gun show there is an officer waiting to make sure your weopon is unloaded and they zip-tie the action to make it unusable. I have never met an officer with any attitude at all, they have always been courteous and accommodating. Now, with that being said, if you state you are on city property and that you will not disarm can you be arrested or denied entrance? This is just a theoretical question. I for one do not want to make a scene especially around such fellowship, but at the same time aren't we kinda doing exactly what we say we are fighting against? Seems almost hypocritical (myself included) for anyone to say give merit to Danbus but not apply the lessons learned by his plight.
    Well, you could be arrested for anything at any time. Proving guilt is another matter entirely.

    Now if you intelligently state your assertion that you are lawfully carrying on city property, hopefully the officer will check into things before he takes action. May not happen that way, as we've seen from Dan's case. All we can do is hope for the best.
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    ProShooter wrote:
    ...Well, you could be arrested for anything at any time. Proving guilt is another matter entirely.
    ...
    Exactly. But they'll punish you by making you go to trial and spend between six and ten thousand dollars defending yourself.
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    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Wouldn't that hold true for almost any venue? Scope is owned by Norfolk. The Convention Center is owned by Virginia Beach.

    At both events they will tie your barrel at the door.

    Where does the precedent and authority for this come from?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    wylde007 wrote:
    Wouldn't that hold true for almost any venue? Scope is owned by Norfolk. The Convention Center is owned by Virginia Beach.

    At both events they will tie your barrel at the door.

    Where does the precedent and authority for this come from?
    It may be an insurance requirement.

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    Or, the gun show insurance company (which is where this is believed to be the "excuse") could stop insuring the show and now you have no gun show anymore.

    Pick the right battles.

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    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    Wouldn't that hold true for almost any venue? Scope is owned by Norfolk. The Convention Center is owned by Virginia Beach.

    At both events they will tie your barrel at the door.

    Where does the precedent and authority for this come from?
    It may be an insurance requirement.
    To clarify: supposedly, it's a requirement of the gun show promoter insurance carrier.
    ---

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    I understand and accept all that, but without a citation or source it comes off as "Because I said so."

    I'd like to see the actual cite, but it's better than a few responses I've gotten... from folks I would have expected to be a little more understanding.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    wylde007 wrote:
    I understand and accept all that, but without a citation or source it comes off as "Because I said so."

    I'd like to see the actual cite, but it's better than a few responses I've gotten... from folks I would have expected to be a little more understanding.

    Seeing as it is pretty much a blanket "requirement" at gun shows across the country, I don't think it is something "Norfolk" is pushing off at all.

    Now, you could contact the insurer for the gun show and see what their stance is. If they don't care one way or another, then that is something to take up with the gun show.


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    In any case, we have gone back around to the issue discussed the other day, namely that a lessor of a government owned property is now defying preemption.

    Perhaps it would make an interesting case some day, for someone to declare that because of preemption, they refuse to disarm, and the event organizer has no authority to declare that legally carried firearms are not allowed.

    Now since they are a private promoter of a private event, they should have the right to deny you (or anyone) entrance, but the public ownership and preemption would seem to cause a conflict.

    TFred


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    Far be it for me to really want to push the issue with their insurance company. If they stop doing gun shows, where are people going to go to get such a fine selection of beef jerky? I just figured if it is public property, how can they forbid it? I don't feel it's a matter of picking your battles, it just seems like common sence. If they put up a sign at town point park during Harbor fest saying no loaded firearms citing insurance reasons then everyone would be haveing a sh$t fit over it, as would I. when it comes to checking my firearm at a GUN show though, I just say bahhhh like all the other sheep and comply.

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    With all the careless gun handling at gunshows It may not be a bad thing to require unloaded guns at shows.

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    I do not believe preemption applies to gun shows because it is not the city, but a private organization adding the restriction as a requirement for entrance to their event. The gun show promoter has set the requirement of paying a fee and securing arms as a condition of entry/participation. If they added a condition of wearing red shirts, there is not much you could do (as stupid as that would be). These conditions are at the organizer's discretion.

    When you go to a show/sale other than a gun show at that location, most of the time there is not a restriction. I have never been asked about my sidearm at the computer show for instance (but also never OCd there either).

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    This is certainly far more informative than the [other person] I first approached about this topic. Never again.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    coltcarrier wrote:
    When you go to a show/sale other than a gun show at that location, most of the time there is not a restriction. I have never been asked about my sidearm at the computer show for instance (but also never OCd there either).
    Excellent point!

    Nevertheless, private property is private property.

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    coltcarrier wrote:
    I do not believe preemption applies to gun shows because it is not the city, but a private organization adding the restriction as a requirement for entrance to their event. The gun show promoter has set the requirement of paying a fee and securing arms as a condition of entry/participation. If they added a condition of wearing red shirts, there is not much you could do (as stupid as that would be). These conditions are at the organizer's discretion.

    When you go to a show/sale other than a gun show at that location, most of the time there is not a restriction. I have never been asked about my sidearm at the computer show for instance (but also never OCd there either).
    But still, they can't restrict your rights - the local gov't can't "sign away" your rights. If you can legally be there (pay admission), then you have the right to carry a firearm there.

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    hsmith wrote:
    coltcarrier wrote:
    * I do not believe preemption applies to gun shows because it is not the city, but a private organization adding the restriction as a requirement for entrance to their event.* The gun show promoter has set the requirement of paying a fee and securing arms as a condition of entry/participation.* If they added a condition of wearing red shirts, there is not much you could do (as stupid as that would be).* These conditions are at the organizer's discretion.

    * When you go to a show/sale other than a gun show at that location, most of the time there is not a restriction.* I have never been asked about my sidearm at the computer show for instance (but also never OCd there either).
    But still, they can't restrict your rights - the local gov't can't "sign away" your rights. If you can legally be there (pay admission), then you have the right to carry a firearm there.
    The issue here is that you are not legally there as you say. There are more conditions to entry than just paying admission. The requirements for entering every gun show I've been to has been admission AND a secured firearm if possessed. Just like a dealer likely would break his/her contract and be removed from the show if they were handing out firearms that were not secured according to the promoter.

    Being a private event the person/entity holding the event has the right to set the entry criteria (with certain restrictions) and state who is "legally" allowed to attend. I should be able to rent a pavilion from the city and be able to only allow people legally carrying firearms and wearing blue shirts if I so choose. I should also be able to have anyone not meeting the criteria removed if I wish as this IS a PRIVATE event and run by me.

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    well, if what some are saying is indeed true, this means that if a private entity like fest events, or any other promotion company decides that no guns are allowed at town point park then state preemption does not apply and you will be asked to leave. Why does this sound familiar?

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    coltcarrier wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    coltcarrier wrote:
    I do not believe preemption applies to gun shows because it is not the city, but a private organization adding the restriction as a requirement for entrance to their event. The gun show promoter has set the requirement of paying a fee and securing arms as a condition of entry/participation. If they added a condition of wearing red shirts, there is not much you could do (as stupid as that would be). These conditions are at the organizer's discretion.

    When you go to a show/sale other than a gun show at that location, most of the time there is not a restriction. I have never been asked about my sidearm at the computer show for instance (but also never OCd there either).
    But still, they can't restrict your rights - the local gov't can't "sign away" your rights. If you can legally be there (pay admission), then you have the right to carry a firearm there.
    The issue here is that you are not legally there as you say. There are more conditions to entry than just paying admission. The requirements for entering every gun show I've been to has been admission AND a secured firearm if possessed. Just like a dealer likely would break his/her contract and be removed from the show if they were handing out firearms that were not secured according to the promoter.

    Being a private event the person/entity holding the event has the right to set the entry criteria (with certain restrictions) and state who is "legally" allowed to attend. I should be able to rent a pavilion from the city and be able to only allow people legally carrying firearms and wearing blue shirts if I so choose. I should also be able to have anyone not meeting the criteria removed if I wish as this IS a PRIVATE event and run by me.
    Tell that to Dan Moore. It has been proven in court. Just because the city "leases" something out doens't mean your rights are infringed. Charging admission does not do away with preemption.

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    hsmith wrote:
    Or, the gun show insurance company (which is where this is believed to be the "excuse") could stop insuring the show and now you have no gun show anymore.

    Pick the right battles.
    I think this is the right answer everywhere. And they don't say you can't bear arms as you obviously can, but rather than you can't bear a loaded arms while inside the show. Being upset about this I think dovetails with some other recent threads about reasonable exercise of our rights. Push the issue, lose the insurance, lose the gun show. Now you can OC your loaded firearm whenever you want when you show people the place where they used to have the big gunshow every year.

    Now people can get mad about this and blame the promoters, the gov't unit that owns the building, the insurance company, etc. but those are the wrong targets. The fact is that these rules are in place because at various points some 2A supporting retard at a gun show shot himself, someone else or damaged property with a firearm. Yes, you can not have a loaded firearm at a gun show because some previous gun owners had NDs. Those are the people you should be mad at and who deserve your anger.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    This is where I feel so conflicted. We talk about our triumphs here, and how we have rights there. In the middle ofour conversation about how some silly gun grabber has such naive views you stop for a second to give your gun to an officer tomake it a paper weight. Once inside we continue our conversation about how we are fighting the good fight against the liberal's gun-grabbing agenda as we walk around a sea of camaraderie with our neutered sidearms on our hips. Why? Well i guess we can't be trusted to do so. I know I am not alone in saying I have always strived to prove that an armed law abiding citizen is responsible and nothing to fear...'cept at a gun show i guess.

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    There are four things people can do about this.

    1. Show up Saturday morning and refuse to disarm. Ask the police officer on duty at the zip tie table to cite where he's not only allowed to disarm you, but to ask for your ammo to. I'm sure you'll get a thoughtful, professional response.

    2. Boycott the show.

    3. Live with it like it is.

    4. Call SGK Ltd. (757) 393-9959 and ask them what's the deal.

  23. #23
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    You forgot:

    5. Just conceal and don't tell.

    6. Complain, piss, and moan.



  24. #24
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    jermflux wrote:
    You forgot:

    5. Just conceal and don't tell.

    6. Complain, piss, and moan.

    I think number 6 has been well taken care of.

  25. #25
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    jermflux wrote:
    You forgot:

    5. Just conceal and don't tell.

    6. Complain, piss, and moan.
    Isn't your #5 the same as his #3?



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