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Lets take this city property thing a little further

J

jermflux

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Jan 21, 2008
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Norfolk, VA
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This is where I feel so conflicted. We talk about our triumphs here, and how we have rights there. In the middle ofour conversation about how some silly gun grabber has such naive views you stop for a second to give your gun to an officer tomake it a paper weight. Once inside we continue our conversation about how we are fighting the good fight against the liberal's gun-grabbing agenda as we walk around a sea of camaraderie with our neutered sidearms on our hips. Why? Well i guess we can't be trusted to do so. I know I am not alone in saying I have always strived to prove that an armed law abiding citizen is responsible and nothing to fear...'cept at a gun show i guess.
 
G

GLENGLOCKER

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There are four things people can do about this.

1. Show up Saturday morning and refuse to disarm. Ask the police officer on duty at the zip tie table to cite where he's not only allowed to disarm you, but to ask for your ammo to. I'm sure you'll get a thoughtful, professional response.

2. Boycott the show.

3. Live with it like it is.

4. Call SGK Ltd. (757) 393-9959 and ask them what's the deal.
 
C

coltcarrier

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, Virginia, USA
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hsmith wrote:
coltcarrier wrote:
hsmith wrote:
coltcarrier wrote:
  I do not believe preemption applies to gun shows because it is not the city, but a private organization adding the restriction as a requirement for entrance to their event.  The gun show promoter has set the requirement of paying a fee and securing arms as a condition of entry/participation.  If they added a condition of wearing red shirts, there is not much you could do (as stupid as that would be).  These conditions are at the organizer's discretion.

  When you go to a show/sale other than a gun show at that location, most of the time there is not a restriction.  I have never been asked about my sidearm at the computer show for instance (but also never OCd there either).
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But still, they can't restrict your rights - the local gov't can't "sign away" your rights. If you can legally be there (pay admission), then you have the right to carry a firearm there.
Click to expand...

The issue here is that you are not legally there as you say. There are more conditions to entry than just paying admission. The requirements for entering every gun show I've been to has been admission AND a secured firearm if possessed. Just like a dealer likely would break his/her contract and be removed from the show if they were handing out firearms that were not secured according to the promoter.

Being a private event the person/entity holding the event has the right to set the entry criteria (with certain restrictions) and state who is "legally" allowed to attend. I should be able to rent a pavilion from the city and be able to only allow people legally carrying firearms and wearing blue shirts if I so choose. I should also be able to have anyone not meeting the criteria removed if I wish as this IS a PRIVATE event and run by me.
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Tell that to Dan Moore. It has been proven in court. Just because the city "leases" something out doens't mean your rights are infringed. Charging admission does not do away with preemption.
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Was Harborfest not a Norfolk event? I thought it was a city event and that the rule that prevented the carrying was a city ordinance. I would also think that that from a rights standpoint contracting a private company to run an event for you (given city) does not make it a private event in the same manor as a gun show. With a gun show, they contract to use a location, not a location contracting a private company to run an event.

I am not trying to argue for violation of preemption. Please don't take my discussion out of context. I may not use the best wording, but in a better world, people would understand how to negotiate rights and we wouldn't be where we are today... arguing who has authority at a given event.
 
H

HyDef

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If it were that easy to get around preemption, cities everywhere would just lease all their public property to some crony businessman for $1 a year, and then have that businessman enact all the restrictions they want.
 
paramedic70002

paramedic70002

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Someone please show me anywhere it states that cities have to let you carry loaded firearms. It stinks, but it passes muster unless I'm missing something.

Keep taking about this and soon enough some entity will start posting signs that say

"GUNS WELCOME BUT AMMO NOT ALLOWED"
 
C

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
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paramedic70002 wrote:
Someone please show me anywhere it states that cities have to let you carry loaded firearms. It stinks, but it passes muster unless I'm missing something.

Keep taking about this and soon enough some entity will start posting signs that say

"GUNS WELCOME BUT AMMO NOT ALLOWED"
Click to expand...
This is the first part of the pre-emption statute:



§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915
 
paramedic70002

paramedic70002

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Well that's cool Citizen. Not too often I get trumped on the law. Let me try again.

"GUNS AND AMMUNITION ARE WELCOME HERE JUST NOT TOGETHER. PLEASE KEEP YOUR AMMO IN YOUR POCKET." Splits hairs but may fly with the right judge.

or...

"THE DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED. SELF DEFENSE IS NOT AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE UNDER THE LAW." The cite does not mention use of the weapon!
 
H

hsmith

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Virginia USA, ,
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paramedic70002 wrote:
Well that's cool Citizen. Not too often I get trumped on the law. Let me try again.

"GUNS AND AMMUNITION ARE WELCOME HERE JUST NOT TOGETHER. PLEASE KEEP YOUR AMMO IN YOUR POCKET." Splits hairs but may fly with the right judge.

or...

"THE DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED. SELF DEFENSE IS NOT AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE UNDER THE LAW." The cite does not mention use of the weapon!
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As the statute is written, localities can't make ANY law which deals with firearms or ammunition, or any combination thereof. If Fairfax passed a statute "You cannot have a loaded handgun on your person" - it would be in violation because it deals with firearms as well as ammunition.
 
C

Citizen

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paramedic70002 wrote:
Well that's cool Citizen. Not too often I get trumped on the law. Let me try again.

"GUNS AND AMMUNITION ARE WELCOME HERE JUST NOT TOGETHER. PLEASE KEEP YOUR AMMO IN YOUR POCKET." Splits hairs but may fly with the right judge.

or...

"THE DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED. SELF DEFENSE IS NOT AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE UNDER THE LAW." The cite does not mention use of the weapon!
Click to expand...

Let me help you sleep a little better.

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.
 
S

SaltH2OHokie

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Bottom of Suffolk, VA
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I can think of better ways to devote energy to furthering your rights than the Scope and gun shows.

Letters to legislators, the Gov., the president of the university I'm attending (and others if you must :lol:), face to face visits with aforementioned persons of power, etc.

But, to each his own.
 
1

1228

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Chesterfield, Virginia, USA
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I would not be surprised if insurance is the issue here. Since we are dealing with a government owned facility both the state and localities typically require the renter of the government property to carry broad form liability insurance which names the government entity as a second insured on the policy. A certificate of this insurance showing that the the public entity is so named must be presented before the rental agreement is finalized. Without this certificate no rental agreement will be issued. For a show the size of a gun show, the renter is probably required to have insurance in the range of a few million dollars. If the insurance company requires some particular approach to firearms taken into the show, the promoter must comply.

Does this scenario create a conflict of rights? Sure. However, without insurance there is no show.
 
C

Chkultr

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Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
236
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Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
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Citizen wrote:
paramedic70002 wrote:
Someone please show me anywhere it states that cities have to let you carry loaded firearms. It stinks, but it passes muster unless I'm missing something.

Keep taking about this and soon enough some entity will start posting signs that say

"GUNS WELCOME BUT AMMO NOT ALLOWED"
Click to expand...
This is the first part of the pre-emption statute:



§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915
Click to expand...
This might help also
 
J

jermflux

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Jan 21, 2008
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Norfolk, VA
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Ok, I understand not making waves and all. Would it be fair to ask that a VCDL member or someone of the such be the person who inspects then zip-ties your piece? Like I said they have always been nice, but there is just something deep down inside that does not like the idea of handing over my firearm to an officer of the law.
 
TFred

TFred

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Oct 13, 2008
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
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Chkultr wrote:
If you were at the last show in Hampton......You would have heard them coming over the PA system.....Due to INSURANCE ALL Firearms must be unloaded! Thank you
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It very well may be the case, but just because they say something, even loudly over a PA System, does not make it true.

In fact, to the contrary, these days, the more and louder I hear something said, the less likely I am to believe that it is true!

TFred
 
C

Chkultr

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Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
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Wasn't saying it is or is not right. Just commenting that the show is stating the reason for unloaded firearms.

My thought is...What is there to stop someone from ccw into a gun show? The NPD LEO barking at the front door "Buy your tickets to the right, ALL firearms must be unloaded and NO Ammo"? Um no. We all know the criminal does not abide by the laws. That is why he/she is a criminal. They do not search your person. Nor do I want to be searched!

Think about this....A gang comes in a few members at a time, knowing that all patrons are empty handed. On cue they take over the gun show stealing all they can, and since you are zip tied, and had to leave that full clip in the car you are SOL.

What is the likelihood of this happening? Who knows. Could it happen? Of course anything is possible. Is this too far fetched? Not really sure, but then again I have seen people holding a shotgun he just bought asking for 12 gauge ammo while he stood right in front of it and not knowing it! He was not sold any ammo.

I don't ever remembder a LEO checking my firearm. Just the lady and the old guy!
 
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