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Thread: Question about NO-GUNS Signs

  1. #1
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    I've been doing a lot of research on various gun-laws in local municipalities today, and for some reason, I started thinking about something..

    In a PRIVATE Establishment, what gives police (even ON duty) the right to carry into those establishments? I've seen plenty of places where the 'rules' make no mention of LEO Status - they simply say "FIREARMS ARE NOT PERMITTED ON THESE PREMISES". Is there a Michigan law that trumps property-owner's rights and allows police to carry anywhere?

    More of a curiosity than a concern, but a curiosity none-the-less.

    Ben

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    I've been doing a lot of research on various gun-laws in local municipalities today, and for some reason, I started thinking about something..

    In a PRIVATE Establishment, what gives police (even ON duty) the right to carry into those establishments? I've seen plenty of places where the 'rules' make no mention of LEO Status - they simply say "FIREARMS ARE NOT PERMITTED ON THESE PREMISES". Is there a Michigan law that trumps property-owner's rights and allows police to carry anywhere?

    More of a curiosity than a concern, but a curiosity none-the-less.

    Ben
    Simply put LEO is by definition use of necessary force and to take action or be willfully negligence or cowards .

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    I've been doing a lot of research on various gun-laws in local municipalities today, and for some reason, I started thinking about something..

    In a PRIVATE Establishment, what gives police (even ON duty) the right to carry into those establishments? I've seen plenty of places where the 'rules' make no mention of LEO Status - they simply say "FIREARMS ARE NOT PERMITTED ON THESE PREMISES". Is there a Michigan law that trumps property-owner's rights and allows police to carry anywhere?

    More of a curiosity than a concern, but a curiosity none-the-less.

    Ben
    This is probably why:

    http://www.getsts.com/LawEnfOffSafetyAct.PDF



  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Actually, IMHO a person could ban ALL firearms from a property and POs have no more rights/ privileges than anyone else. What is the legal ramification of carrying on property that has a sign prohibiting firearms? A charge of trespassing if you don't leave when asked. So, would a citizen ask that an officer leave? Probably not. But if I walked into my backyard and saw a PO looking around w/out a warrant (or any warrantless entry exceptions), I would demand that they leave immediately. Legally, though, they could stand off my property and look under the "open fields" doctrine.

    I see that Texas is actually considering making it legal for LEO to carry on private property with "No Handguns", as their law makes it a crime to carry on property with signage prohibiting firearms. IMHO, Michigan does not criminalize ignoring the signs per se. However, it could/would constitute Trespass whether you are a private citizen or PO w/out a warrant (or covered under warrantless entry exceptions) and would therefore be illegal.



    I am not a lawyer. Information is provided for general, informational purposes only. If you have questions regarding specific legal issues, please consult an attorney.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    Actually, IMHO a person could ban ALL firearms from a property and POs have no more rights/ privileges than anyone else. What is the legal ramification of carrying on property that has a sign prohibiting firearms? A charge of trespassing if you don't leave when asked. So, would a citizen ask that an officer leave? Probably not. But if I walked into my backyard and saw a PO looking around w/out a warrant (or any warrantless entry exceptions), I would demand that they leave immediately. Legally, though, they could stand off my property and look under the "open fields" doctrine.

    I see that Texas is actually considering making it legal for LEO to carry on private property with "No Handguns", as their law makes it a crime to carry on property with signage prohibiting firearms. IMHO, Michigan does not criminalize ignoring the signs per se. However, it could/would constitute Trespass whether you are a private citizen or PO w/out a warrant (or covered under warrantless entry exceptions) and would therefore be illegal.



    I am not a lawyer. Information is provided for general, informational purposes only. If you have questions regarding specific legal issues, please consult an attorney.
    Performance of Duty under color of Law To make it Legal ?

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    PilotPTK wrote:
    I've been doing a lot of research on various gun-laws in local municipalities today, and for some reason, I started thinking about something..

    In a PRIVATE Establishment, what gives police (even ON duty) the right to carry into those establishments? I've seen plenty of places where the 'rules' make no mention of LEO Status - they simply say "FIREARMS ARE NOT PERMITTED ON THESE PREMISES". Is there a Michigan law that trumps property-owner's rights and allows police to carry anywhere?

    More of a curiosity than a concern, but a curiosity none-the-less.

    Ben
    This is probably why:

    http://www.getsts.com/LawEnfOffSafetyAct.PDF

    Specifically in document:

    `(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

    `(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Yep, but this section doesn't make ignoring the sign illegal, just says it doesn't effect any functions the sign would have anywhere else in the law. Some states, Texas for instance, do make the signs have specific legal authority in their concealed carry laws.

    And Taxwhat is right, to a point and this is covered under the warrantless search provisions I mentioned above. But, without those exceptions in play, the officer would be violating the law to the same degree as any other person. So, if I asked an officer to leave my store,, property, etc. he/she would have to unless a warrant was available or exceptions to a warrant were applicable. Remember too that if I call, they can come in (basically an invite in) or if someone else calls (emergency circumstance) it would be provided for in the warrantless exceptions. If the legislature wanted to make a general exception for POs, then it could be specifically allowed for in the MCL (I haven't seen it, not saying it isn't there, just haven't seen it) Perhaps someone who reads this can enlighten the conversation by finding it.


    I am not a lawyer. Information is provided for general, informational purposes only. If you have questions regarding specific legal issues, please consult an attorney.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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