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Thread: When Ocing in a restaurant

  1. #1
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    When ocing in a restaurant do you need to do anything special? Like if you sit to a booth and your strong side facing in so people can't see it is that still considered open carrying or is it now concealed? Any tips for someone who doesn't have a chp and wants to carry to a restaurant?

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    For a weapon to be "concealed" there must be an intent to conceal or disguise the purpose of the weapon.

    If you happen to be seated in a chair or booth where your strong-side is not immediately evident you are not concealing by intent.

    We look at this question (in fact, I asked it myself once) regularly. If what you say were the case, it could be argued that a right-hand strong could only circle the salad bar to his left for fear of "concealing". That's simply not the case.

    I generally try to sit with the strong side facing "out" (for lack of a better term) because it provides the opportunity for others to see that I am carrying and exercising my rights. Every person who has a positive (or even neutral) experience witnessing an open-carrier is one fewer who has no experience or only hearsay to go on.

    In short, no.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Just carry a weapon on all exposed sides, but I'm sure someone would find a complaint regarding that as well. Of course I wear two Bandoliers and most people think it is just a weird looking vest.



  4. #4
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Carry like Chewbacca.:celebrate
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Virginia Code Section 18.2-308 - Prohibits the carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or any weapon of like kind by any person hidden from common observance about his person. Any of the enumerated weapons shall be seized and forfeited to the Commonwealth. A weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    Based on the statute and decisions rendered by the Supreme Court, a weapon is considered to be concealed at any time it is placed in a location as to be within reach of the person, without the person being required to make an overt act to retrieve such weapon, when such weapon is hidden from common observation. Placing a weapon under the seat, on the seat hidden from common observation, or at any location from which the weapon can readily be retrieved is considered to be concealed. A person carrying a weapon in the unlocked glove compartment of an automobile, if the person does not have a permit or otherwise fall within any statutory exemption, is a violation of § 18.2-308(A), unless some particular fact or circumstance renders the weapon inaccessible.


    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/

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    I concur, the answer is no, imho.

    Others might disagree.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    It's an untested vagary of the law. Similar issue with car carry, although I did hear about a trooper that got spanked in a lower court for charging a motorist for concealing because it wasn't visible from the driver window.

    My opinion is to carry on like it's not an issue until I find out differently, and hopefully I can get paid when I'm found not guilty.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    It's an untested vagary of the law. Similar issue with car carry, although I did hear about a trooper that got spanked in a lower court for charging a motorist for concealing because it wasn't visible from the driver window.

    My opinion is to carry on like it's not an issue until I find out differently, and hopefully I can get paid when I'm found not guilty.
    So can I carry it in my holster in a vehicle since you can't see it unless on the passenger side? Even then the center console might block it. I've always put it out in the open but is that required or is it fine to just leave it in the holster?

  8. #8
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Odious opinions abound on both sides of the issue. I can't recall any case law and the Code sure isn't any help.

    Best defense may be to declare the weapon if approached by an LEO. If you get charged your defense would be:

    1. It was in a holster designed for the open carry of a firearm, and/or; it was readily visible when standing in a normal fashion.

    2. By declaring the firearm you obviously were not attempting to have it hidden, and had made no overt act to have it hidden, such as by placing it in the glove box or under a newspaper, or under a coat.

    3. Placing it on the seat could cause it to become a missile during a car crash, expelling it from the vehicle and rendering it not under your control, therefore endangering passersby.

    I AM NOT A LAWYER!
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    Similar issue with car carry, although I did hear about a trooper that got spanked in a lower court for charging a motorist for concealing because it wasn't visible from the driver window.
    I'd appreciate it if someone could post a citation.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    Best defense may be to declare the weapon
    Yeah.. thats what SHE said...

    AND unless you are MILITARY or POLICE, I personally, many others, and the NRA (not that they are always right) advise you not call it a WEAPON. The word "WEAPON" has negative connotation with the general public and is used for OFFENSE tactics.

    Do as you wish.. but if you are ever in court, defending your tactcis.. which sounds better when judged by a jury? (which may or may not be gun owners)

    And as the bad guy came at me I drew my WEAPON and fired at him!

    or

    And as the bad guy came at me I drew my defensive firearm and fired at him!


    Carry On.

    Ed

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    ed wrote:
    ...The word "WEAPON" has negative connotation with the general public and is used for OFFENSE tactics...
    I like the word "sidearm" myself...

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    kle wrote:
    ed wrote:
    ...The word "WEAPON" has negative connotation with the general public and is used for OFFENSE tactics...
    I like the word "sidearm" myself...
    I used that too.. even when trainign others... if I call it the "W", I will pay the fist student to speak up $5.00. I am trying to break the old habit when I was in the USMC.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  13. #13
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    ed wrote:
    ...which sounds better when judged by a jury? (which may or may not be gun owners)

    And as the bad guy came at me I drew my WEAPON and fired at him!

    or

    And as the bad guy came at me I drew my sidearm and defended myself!
    FTFY, since we're mincing words here =)

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    IMO - Whether you are OCing or CCing depends more on how you are carrying your handgun and little on the perspective of the viewer.

    If I am carrying in a belt slide holster with no garments covering it, it is OC - whether I am seated in my vehicle, strong side to the wall in a booth, in a restroom stall, or standing strong side away from you. That I will take to the bank.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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