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Thread: Guns in post offices: My Congressman may be acting on this

  1. #1
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I recently sent the email below to Congressman Forbes.

    I got a phone call back from one of Congressman Forbes' staffers today. Unfortunately I was tied up with a patient and couldn't answer the phone. By the time I checked the message, it was too late to call back, so I will return the call Monday.

    The gist of the message:

    He wants to talk to me about the issue so they can "get to the bottom of these conflicting regulations."

    Sounds encouraging. Randy Forbes is a solid pro 2A guy.

    The original email:

    Congressman Forbes,

    I have a question about Federal law and a glaring inconsistency that has been greatly debated among gun owners, and I hope that you can provide some assistance.

    Many Post Offices have signs barring the possession of weapons, and they cite various Federal Codes. As a lawful citizen with a valid Concealed Handgun Permit, may I legally carry my handgun into a United States Post Office? Is the permitted carrying of a handgun considered a lawful activity (purpose)?

    I will list the relevant Code below.

    18 USC Section 930 (a) says:

    Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    18 USA Section 930 (d) says:

    Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    However:

    18 USC 930 does not apply to the post office.

    39 USC 410 exempts Post Offices from 18 USC 930 (being a statute dealing with Federal facilities in general.) 39 USC 410, specifically dealing with post offices, states:

    § 410. Application of other laws

    Release date: 2003-06-24

    (a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

    (b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

    (1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

    (2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;

    So the only provision that I could be charged under is 39 CFR 232.1

    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

    Which leads to a better question: If I go to the Post Office in order to take mail a package or buy stamps, is that an official purpose? Official purpose is not defined.

    While there are alternatives to the Post Office, I am sure that very few citizens could go their whole lives without needing to go there at some point. I can not think of any good reason why weapons should be banned, such as is necessary in a Federal Courthouse. Going to the Post Office is not much different than going to Wal Mart!

    Please also reference the following:

    US v. Dorosan:

    The Volokh Conspiracy - Another Early Post-<i>Heller</i> Second Amendment Case:

    Dorosan was a Postal employee found to be in possession of a firearm in the employee parking lot, and was found guilty of the CFR 232 cite. Note I am not asking you fight a Judge's ruling. What I would like is a law that prohibits the Post Office from issuing a blanket prohibition, similar to the recent reversal of the National Park rule, that makes the parks mirror state law. Oddly enough, VA law allows rural postal carriers to carry a concealed handgun without a permit!

    Thank you for your attention to this matter.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  2. #2
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    My personal opinion

    Iliken the39 CFR cite as being equal to the famous VCU admin statute prohibiting firearms.The VCU statute pertains to violations commited by "members of the University Community" (Students, teachers, employees). The CFR is an employee handbook, if you will.18 USC, Section 930 is the United States Code, the highest law in the land. Even the CFR says that its rules do not overide Federal Law (US Code). If the US Code says that its ok, then its ok in my book. If you are an employee of the Post Office, then you are subject to the CFR just like an employee of Ukrops is subject to the Ukrops employee handbook, except that the CFR has criminal penalities associated with violations by employees.

    Again, I'm not a lawyer

    I dont play one on tv

    I didnt stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

    I'm just a guy with a gun.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  3. #3
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    I would like to know what they say. Thanks
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



  4. #4
    State Researcher
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    I think 39 U.S.C. §410(a) poses an inherent problem:

    Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.


    I will leave to others the task of further researching the interaction between 39 U.S.C. § 410 and 18 U.S.C. § 930.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    I...18 USC Section 930 (a) says:

    Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    18 USA Section 930 (d) says:

    Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes...
    My emphasis above.

    If the small section of your post is representative of Federal law, then just what part of Federal law prohibits one from carrying in a Federal building, excluding a courthouse?

    Relying only on what is above, for instance, CC in a building in a National Park should be legal.

    Am I missing something?

  6. #6
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    To help muddy things more. Check section 243.2 (2)



    Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
    regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
    control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
    imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in
    these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other
    Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations
    applicable to any area in which the property is situated.




  7. #7
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    Why can't they make it simple like so...

    Federal Property is owned by the Federal Government. Said government's rules are spelled out in the Constitution and its attendant Amendments.

    There's really no need for obfuscating legalese.

    **please note, the above is a pipe dream, not the real deal.**

  8. #8
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    So basically....

    If i am in the USPS office with only a holster on my hip and my firearm locked in the glove box that i could get arrested...???

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran pourshot's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    My personal opinion


    I'm just a guy with a gun.
    "A" gun?:shock: I really feel for you Dude!

  10. #10
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    pourshot wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    My personal opinion


    I'm just a guy with a gun.
    "A" gun?:shock: I really feel for you Dude!
    I have a gun.......and another gun, and another.....
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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