Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Buying a new Gun

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    70

    Post imported post

    When I purchased my first pistol I was told by the Saginaw Sheriffs office they only process purchase permits M - F until 4:30. This is a major p.i.t.a. for me because I work M - F until 4:30.

    I vaguely recall someone saying that the police were not allowed to restrict the hours they fill purchase permits. Is this so?

    I hate to be "that guy" but I really don't wand to have to take time off work to get my permit. My pay checks are already small enough

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    get the card from them and just mail it in.

    no need to go there to do it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    70

    Post imported post

    Have to go to the sheriff to get the card (background check ext...) right?

    That is the part that they told me they only did M - F, no later than 4:30pm

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    HPC9 wrote:
    Have to go to the sheriff to get the card (background check ext...) right?

    That is the part that they told me they only did M - F, no later than 4:30pm
    They have to do it during their hours. If they are open until 5:00 they have to do it. Generallydepartments have some saturday hours. I suggest you call Jim Simmons he is an attorney and loves these kinds of calls. First call is free and he may be able to give you some advice.

    Jim Simmons
    Law Offices of James T. Simmons, P.C.
    45700 Village Boulevard
    Shelby Township, Michigan, 48315
    (586) 566-1900
    (586) 532-4110 fax
    jtsimmons@jtsimmons.com
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    HPC9 wrote:
    Have to go to the sheriff to get the card (background check ext...) right?

    That is the part that they told me they only did M - F, no later than 4:30pm
    actually, you "should" be able to go into your local gun shop to pick up the cards. i have not checked to see if any around here have them yet. but that was the idea behind the new law. go into gun shop, register, mail in. no trips ever to the sheriff's office.

    no, i do not support this new method, but it would help in your case if they are giving you problems (if the attorney option doesn't pan out for ya).

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    70

    Post imported post

    Venator thanks. I saved that number in my phone. Hope I never have to call it.


    viperar15 you sure that's how it's going to work? I already put money down, if I didn't need to go to the sheriff I think they would of said something. I would of bought it on the spot if that's the case

  7. #7
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    HPC9 wrote:
    Venator thanks. I saved that number in my phone. Hope I never have to call it.


    viperar15 you sure that's how it's going to work? I already put money down, if I didn't need to go to the sheriff I think they would of said something. I would of bought it on the spot if that's the case
    Are we talking about two things? One is a permit to purchase. The other is the registration process. I think you have to get the permit topurchaseat the sheriff Department, where they do a background check, administer test, etc. Once you get the permit to purchase you can then fill in the formwith the person you are buying the gun from. You then do NOT have to go back, you can mail in the receipt/registration forms to the sheriff or your local PD. Or take them to either in person.


    Is this the correct procedure now in place?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    hmm... i'm gonna look into it further again.

    i know when i was at the midland station, i was told i didn't even have to come in....

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    ok... here it is!

    i'll just let ya read it ;-)

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...6241--,00.html

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    125

    Post imported post

    When I purchased my last handgun (December) I was told by the Jackson Sheriffs office who was open 8-5, that they can only process the permits between 9 and 4:30 because they have to connect into a system in Lansing that is only open between those times. Made it a bigger PITA since I live in Jackson and work in Lansing. Took 3 trips to finally get it, got there at 8 on the dot and was told "we cant process them untill 9", next day got there at 4:45 "oh we cant do it after 4:30", The entire time the sign on the door said "8:00AM to 5:00PM"

    Edit: There is now a sign on the door that says "Handgun Purchase Permits 9am-4:30pm"

  11. #11
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,071

    Post imported post








    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0emp3vvy22szsx45xvmvcf55))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-28-422

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927

    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.Sec. 2.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.
    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a(1) of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.
    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.
    (iii) Section 2950(10) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.
    (iv) Section 2950a(7) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.
    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.
    (vi) Section 6b(5) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.
    (vii) Section 16b(1) of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.
    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.
    (c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:
    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.
    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.
    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.
    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.
    (d) A felony charge or a criminal charge listed in section 5b against the person is not pending at the time of application.
    (e) The person is not prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm under section 224f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224f.
    (f) The person has not been adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere unless he or she has been adjudged restored to sanity by court order.
    (g) The person is not under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.
    (h) The person has not been adjudged legally incapacitated in this state or elsewhere. This subdivision does not apply to a person who has had his or her legal capacity restored by order of the court.
    (i) The person correctly answers 70% or more of the questions on a basic pistol safety review questionnaire approved by the department of state police and provided to the individual free of charge by the licensing authority. If the person fails to correctly answer 70% or more of the questions on the basic pistol safety review questionnaire, the licensing authority shall inform the person of the questions he or she answered incorrectly and allow the person to attempt to complete another basic pistol safety review questionnaire. The person shall not be allowed to attempt to complete more than 2 basic pistol safety review questionnaires on any single day. The licensing authority shall allow the person to attempt to complete the questionnaire during normal business hours on the day the person applies for his or her license.
    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.
    (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination.
    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.
    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of the pistol.
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.
    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (10) The licensing authority may require a person claiming active duty status with the United States armed forces to provide proof of 1 or both of the following:
    (a) The person's home of record.
    (b) Permanent active duty assignment in this state.
    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.
    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.
    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    (13) The licensing authority shall provide a basic pistol safety brochure to each applicant for a license under this section before the applicant answers the basic pistol safety review questionnaire. A basic pistol safety brochure shall contain, but is not limited to providing, information on all of the following subjects:
    (a) Rules for safe handling and use of pistols.
    (b) Safe storage of pistols.
    (c) Nomenclature and description of various types of pistols.
    (d) The responsibilities of owning a pistol.
    (14) The basic pistol safety brochure shall be supplied in addition to the safety pamphlet required by section 9b.
    (15) The basic pistol safety brochure required in subsection (13) shall be produced by a national nonprofit membership organization that provides voluntary pistol safety programs that include training individuals in the safe handling and use of pistols.
    (16) A person who forges any matter on an application for a license under this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    (17) A licensing authority shall implement this section during all of the licensing authority's normal business hours and shall set hours for implementation that allow an applicant to use the license within the time period set forth in subsection (4).
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    70

    Post imported post

    By the looks of it they are not open on Saturdays.

    To be fair I did sleep in a bit and ended up having to wait for my wife to be finished getting ready for work before I could get ready. By the time I got to the Sheriff's office it was almost noon. They didn't have hours posted anywhere that I seen.

    Looks like I will have to get out of work early Monday. I was really hoping I could get the purchase permit today and pick up the gun Monday and take it to the range.

    heh This is going to be a rough week. All I going to be able to think about is; purchase permit, Pick up gun, go to the range, Not to mention I'd like to get enough practice to carry on the 7th!

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    OK, I got some more clarification on this for you guys/gals.

    If transferring from a CPL owner to another CPL Owner there is no need to even drop into the police station, except for once to pickup a stack of registration slips.

    If you are transferring from a CPL owner to a Non-CPL owner, the Non-CPL owner must get a permit to purchase from the station first. then after that does not need to step foot into the station.

    I have not checked on a transfer from FFL dealer to CPL owner, but I believe its the same as a CPL to CPL Owner.



  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    viperar15 wrote:
    OK, I got some more clarification on this for you guys/gals.

    If transferring from a CPL owner to another CPL Owner there is no need to even drop into the police station, except for once to pickup a stack of registration slips.

    If you are transferring from a CPL owner to a Non-CPL owner, the Non-CPL owner must get a permit to purchase from the station first. then after that does not need to step foot into the station.

    I have not checked on a transfer from FFL dealer to CPL owner, but I believe its the same as a CPL to CPL Owner.

    I assume this is the same even if neither have a CPL.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    SQLtables wrote:
    viperar15 wrote:
    OK, I got some more clarification on this for you guys/gals.

    If transferring from a CPL owner to another CPL Owner there is no need to even drop into the police station, except for once to pickup a stack of registration slips.

    If you are transferring from a CPL owner to a Non-CPL owner, the Non-CPL owner must get a permit to purchase from the station first. then after that does not need to step foot into the station.

    I have not checked on a transfer from FFL dealer to CPL owner, but I believe its the same as a CPL to CPL Owner.

    I assume this is the same even if neither have a CPL.
    correct.

    last time dad was at the station last week, the station just gave him a small stack of registration slips.


  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    70

    Post imported post

    Well I did it. I finally broke down and got a new gun.

    Grab a snack and get comfey it's...
    /story time

    My first gun was a Hi-Point C9. I know a few people that own Hi-Points and they all have had good experiences with them. Money was a huge factor and at $150 it's hard to beat the price.

    I got my C9 in November and have put just over 200 rounds through it. I have put FMJ and hollow points through it with no problems, and it's more accurate than I am. I had a friend that shoots IDPA prove that to me

    For $150 I suggest anyone that needs a pistol to stash some were check these guys out. I now keep mine in the bedroom. If something bad happens my wife and I know we can retreat to the bedroom and be able to defend ourselves.

    Early this year I got a bonus from work. We talked about using it to pay down debt but never got around to doing it, so it just sat in the savings account. Well I semi-regularly shoot with friends and we tend to pass our pistols around at the range. So after shooting a XD, M&P and a Sig 229 I decide to plant the seed of new pistol in the mind of my wife.

    After seeing the differences in my pistol and my friends pistols she said she would not mind if we spent the bonus money on a new pistol. :celebrate

    After much debate, and many trips to every gun store I could find, I decide on a XD. I realy wanted a XDM but it was well outside of my $500 limit.

    Now its time to sell her on it. I take her out to Joe Gun. They had the best prices on XDs and XDMs that I found. I'm showing her the XD and she dosn't like it.

    "We already have a plain black block."

    "Ok." "How about the Bi-tone."

    "Thats not bad, But I don't like the grip"

    "Ok." How about the XDM Bi-tone."

    "Wow, I like this." "Why is it so much more expensive."

    "Grip, trigger, blah blah blah..."

    "Is this the one you want?"

    "It is."

    "Ok." "Lets get it"

    :what::celebrate

    That was Thursday. We put money down to hold it and now I have to get a purchase permit.

    Friday I can't get out early, not enough notice.

    I spend Saturday and Sunday surfing gun pron. By Monday the pedistal is gone, I have this gun on top of an ivory tower. I am sersouly worried that I am so hyped up that I am going to be disapointed when it doesn't cook breakfast and do my laundry.

    Yay Monday is here! I get out of work early, get the permit and still have enough time to hit Joe Gun. Get home, show my wife and she says "Nice, do we have time to go shooting?".

    "No they close at 6:00" "Err wait... it's Monday they are open till 9:00" I am totaly stunned. I didn't expect to be able to pick it up untill the following Thursday, and not shoot till the Monday after that.

    The ivroy tower was very aproprate. It feels and shoots amazingly, and I'm not even disapointed that it dosn't cook or do laundry =p


    TLDR version...







  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    ^Very nice HCP9. I really like the looks of the XDm a lot more than the XD Tac I had. And,20 round capacityis hard to beat.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    Very nice, a good story and I hope it brings you years of happiness. I love guns, don't know why, I just do.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    20 rounds? holy cow!

    Most excellent!

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    dougwg wrote:
    20 rounds? holy cow!

    Most excellent!
    Hate do derail this thread, but my wife always asks why I need more than one magazine when mine can hold 17 at a time. I try explaining that I'm not worried about running out of bullets, instead I'm more worried a magazine spring will fail on me. This apparently falls on deaf ears because every time we go out she comments on me carrying two spare mags.

    That said, Very nice purchase. I'm hoping to make another purchase in the near future.

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    20 rounds? holy cow!

    Most excellent!
    Hate do derail this thread, but my wife always asks why I need more than one magazine when mine can hold 17 at a time. I try explaining that I'm not worried about running out of bullets, instead I'm more worried a magazine spring will fail on me. This apparently falls on deaf ears because every time we go out she comments on me carrying two spare mags.

    That said, Very nice purchase. I'm hoping to make another purchase in the near future.
    Does your car have a spare tire???
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    20 rounds? holy cow!

    Most excellent!
    Hate do derail this thread, but my wife always asks why I need more than one magazine when mine can hold 17 at a time. I try explaining that I'm not worried about running out of bullets, instead I'm more worried a magazine spring will fail on me. This apparently falls on deaf ears because every time we go out she comments on me carrying two spare mags.

    That said, Very nice purchase. I'm hoping to make another purchase in the near future.
    Does your car have a spare tire???
    It would be akin to carrying two spare tires. But that's not how she sees it. She sees it as the gun carrying 17+1 rounds, and me carrying 34 rounds as backup. She still doesn't seem to understand that I'm carrying two backup magazines in case the magazine fails, not in case I need 50+ rounds...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •