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Thread: New controls needed

  1. #1
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    There is a member here, a gun owner, that has stated that we should have hand gun registration and sales records to stem the flow of firearms into the hands of criminals.

    Sounds like something Komrad Pilosi would want. Ur Briefs Bitta! (bad translation)

    How is that going to help prevent crime? Does any one really think criminals will fill out paperwork?

    Sorry but I just don't see that happening.springerdave.

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    springerdave wrote:
    There is a member here, a gun owner, that has stated that we should have hand gun registration and sales records to stem the flow of firearms into the hands of criminals.

    Sounds like something Komrad Pilosi would want. Ur Briefs Bitta! (bad translation)

    How is that going to help prevent crime? Does any one really think criminals will fill out paperwork?

    Sorry but I just don't see that happening.springerdave.
    Over 20K gun control laws on the books and BG's still get their hands on firearms. I say, no more "feel good " laws allowed-enough is enough.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    springerdave wrote:
    There is a member here, a gun owner, that has stated that we should have hand gun registration and sales records to stem the flow of firearms into the hands of criminals.

    Sounds like something Komrad Pilosi would want. Ur Briefs Bitta! (bad translation)

    How is that going to help prevent crime? Does any one really think criminals will fill out paperwork?

    Sorry but I just don't see that happening.springerdave.
    Over 20K gun control laws on the books and BG's still get their hands on firearms. I say, no more "feel good " laws allowed-enough is enough.
    Amen
    +1000
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

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    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    The problem with that sort of mentality is that it is still going on the premise that, "criminals will obey the laws". The idea that any kind of registration keeps the guns out of the criminals hands well.. wrong. It's like thinking that keeping guns off of airplanes would prevent hijackings.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

    A few samples of the info available from the U.S. Dept. of Justice, which wasthe very firstdocument that popped up on a Google search:


    Stolen guns are a source of weapons for criminals


    All stolen guns are available to criminals by definition. Recent studies of adult and juvenile offenders show that many have either stolen a firearm or kept, sold, or traded a stolen firearm: According to the 1991 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those inmates who possessed a handgun,


    9% had acquired it through theft, and 28% had acquired it through an illegal market such as a drug dealer or fence. Of all inmates, 10% had stolen at least one gun, and 11% had sold or traded stolen guns.


    Studies of adult and juvenile offenders that the Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services conducted in 1992 and 1993 found that 15% of the adult offenders and 19% of the juvenile offenders had stolen guns; 16% of the adults and 24% of the juveniles had kept a stolen gun; and 20% of the adults and 30% of the juveniles had sold or traded a stolen gun.


    From a sample of juvenile inmates in four States, Sheley and Wright found that more than 50% had stolen a gun at least once in their lives and 24% had stolen their most recently obtained handgun. They concluded that theft and burglary were the original, not always the proximate, source of many guns acquired by the juveniles.


    How many guns are stolen?


    The Victim Survey (NCVS) estimates that there were 341,000 incidents of firearm theft from private citizens annually from 1987 to 1992. Because the survey does not ask how many guns were stolen, the number of guns stolen probably exceeds the number of incidents of gun theft.


    The FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) stolen gun file contained over 2 million reports as of March 1995. In 1994, over 306,000 entries were added to this file including a variety of guns, ammunition, cannons, and grenades. Reports of stolen guns are included in the NCIC files when citizens report a theft to law enforcement agencies that submit a report to the FBI. All entries must include make, caliber, and serial number. Initiated in 1967, the NCIC stolen gun file retains all entries indefinitely unless a recovery is reported.


    Most stolen guns are handguns


    Victims report to the Victim Survey that handguns were stolen in 53% of the thefts of guns. The FBI's stolen gun file's 2 million reports include information on
    ¾


    1.26 million handguns (almost 60%)


    470,000 rifles (22%)


    356,000 shotguns (17%).


    From 1985 to 1994, the FBI received an annual average


    of over 274,000 reports of stolen guns


    Source: FBI, National Crime Information Center, 1995.

    1968 1970



    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    As I stated in the other post, I don't think the registration system is perfect, but I also thought it was helping. It was the word perfect that got me thinking; the only perfect law is the one not written.I have always been opposed to just about every law ever written because they aways seen to been enacted do to the stupidity of a few and cost the rest of us freedom. I don't know why I felt the registration system was any different. I guess I am concerned if people could purchase a firearm the same way they can a golf club or a yard rake our society with it's lack of self control wouldn't be able to handle it.

    Thanks again for everyones input and insight.

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    SIGfreed wrote:
    As I stated in the other post, I don't think the registration system is perfect, but I also thought it was helping. It was the word perfect that got me thinking; the only perfect law is the one not written.I have always been opposed to just about every law ever written because they aways seen to been enacted do to the stupidity of a few and cost the rest of us freedom. I don't know why I felt the registration system was any different. I guess I am concerned if people could purchase a firearm the same way they can a golf club or a yard rake our society with it's lack of self control wouldn't be able to handle it.

    Thanks again for everyones input and insight.
    I think the problem is that your viewing two different segments as having the same restrictions.

    Registration as it sounds like you looking at it is as a tool to restrict access to criminals. That is flawed thinking, because it doesn't restrict them. It's nothing more than a feel good law. OHOH, it does keep those who are law abiding, and who value their privacy from having access, so it does restrict law abiding. Registration, as a concept has little if any influence on crime.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    SNIP Registration, as a concept has little if any influence on crime.
    I agree. Itwill never stop Congress.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    SIGfreed wrote:
    ". . . our society with it's lack of self control . . ."
    Implicit in your statement is that it applies to gun ownership and use as well (you did not make any exceptions in your statement). Such a negative general opinion of society, with respect to gun ownership, is usually found with gun-control advocates. They are quick togeneralize in such waysand those generalizationsare completely wrong.I'm quite surprised when a gun owner displays the same behavior as gun-control advocates.

    You are part of that very society which you say lacks self-control. How, then, do you justifyowning yourgun(s)? You can't say "well, I have self-control", because you are not separatefrom society.

    Do you see the problem with your generalization, now? Society is made up of those who have self-control with respect to guns and those who don't. The former are firmly in the majority (which is a statistical fact about gun owners), thus you are wrong that society lacks self-control with respect to guns.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  10. #10
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    DanM wrote:
    SIGfreed wrote:
    ". . . our society with it's lack of self control . . ."
    Implicit in your statement is that it applies to gun ownership and use as well (you did not make any exceptions in your statement). Such a negative general opinion of society, with respect to gun ownership, is usually found with gun-control advocates. They are quick togeneralize in such waysand those generalizationsare completely wrong.I'm quite surprised when a gun owner displays the same behavior as gun-control advocates.

    You are part of that very society which you say lacks self-control. How, then, do you justifyowning yourgun(s)? You can't say "well, I have self-control", because you are not separatefrom society.

    Do you see the problem with your generalization, now? Society is made up of those who have self-control with respect to guns and those who don't. The former are firmly in the majority (which is a statistical fact about gun owners), thus you are wrong that society lacks self-control with respect to guns.
    Along with that, it also goes with something someone else once said about another criticism of firearms ownership.

    It's basically a like way of thinking, even though it was in response to a different criticism of guns and gun owners:

    Massad Ayoob once wrote this:

    What about the argument that people die in domestic arguments because a gun is within reach of an angry person? Certainly, those with uncontrollably violent tendencies should not own guns.

    When asked this question, I always respond with a question: “Could you pick up a gun and kill someone you love because they angered you?”

    If the answer is No, I reply, “Then how dare you imply that I, and everyone else, would be that unstable?” If the answer is Yes, I suggest they stop attempting to counsel well-adjusted people and immediately seek psychiatric counseling for their own self-admitted tendency toward acting out impulses of uncontrollable violence.
    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob45a.html

    It's similar.

    Are you going to be irresponsible with a gun? I certainly do not intend to, and so far I've got a pretty good track record.





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    Thank you, SpringerXDacp, Taurus850CIA, Ghostrider, Bronson, Citizen and DanM. Your wisdom and words surpass anything I could have come up with to try to explain my position on this line of thought. Proud of you and proud of Sigfreed for allowing us to help him see our side of things. As far as I am concerened... "Well King, this case is closed."( Sgt Preston RCMP.)springerdave.

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    Well i hope that nobody thinks less of me for my past, but here is a littlestory that has much to do with criminals and gun's.

    When i was younger (16 or so) I ran with a bad crowd of big time drug dealers (most of them are dead now) anyways one day i went to a house over in davison and the guy asked if I wanted to buy any pistols and/or if i would sell them for him, not being big on going to jail i said no but he insisted i check them out anyways.

    So he brings out a crate labeled U.S military that is full of pistols. now i'm not the smartest but i don't think that guy got them guns using any kind of paperwork, either way i tucked tail and split that guy is now dead (he was shot in flint) and i don't mess with anyone from them times..

    So i think more paper work is just a waste of our time, criminals are going to get gun's one way or another judging from this guy with the crate of military arm's.

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    I feel when it comes to the issue of any form of Government imposed Gun Registration at all I always refer to the master.

    "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our street will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" Adolf Hitler, 1935



    Just rember that Registration is the first step to Confiscation.

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