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Suicide by cop...
- Thread starter Kevin Jensen
- Start date
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=5921525
Standoff in Alpine ends peacefully
March 21st, 2009 @ 9:54pm
By Sarah Dallof
ALPINE, UTAH COUNTY -- A five-hour standoff in Alpine ends with a 62-year-old man in police custody.
Police were called to his home on the 300 West block of Meadowlark Drive around 10:30 Saturday morning by his family. They said he had a gun and was threatening to hurt himself.
The family was able to get out of the home safely. Officials then called in SWAT teams, and police surrounded the home.
Neighbor Tony Xanthos said, "When I came out, they instructed me to go back into the house because they had rifles."
Police say there was little communication with the man until the end, when he surrendered and was escorted from the home.
Lone Peak police Sgt. Jacob Moosman said, "After approximately five hours, 62-year-old male individual gave, made the right decision and came out, and we were able to take him safely out of that situation."
Police are not confirming the man's name, but neighbors we spoke with were shocked by who was involved. They say this man is a great guy, a family man who worked in a very pressure-filled job field.
Police are not commenting on what upset the man so much.
ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=5921525Standoff in Alpine ends peacefully
March 21st, 2009 @ 9:54pm
By Sarah Dallof
ALPINE, UTAH COUNTY -- A five-hour standoff in Alpine ends with a 62-year-old man in police custody.
Police were called to his home on the 300 West block of Meadowlark Drive around 10:30 Saturday morning by his family. They said he had a gun and was threatening to hurt himself.
The family was able to get out of the home safely. Officials then called in SWAT teams, and police surrounded the home.
Neighbor Tony Xanthos said, "When I came out, they instructed me to go back into the house because they had rifles."
Police say there was little communication with the man until the end, when he surrendered and was escorted from the home.
Lone Peak police Sgt. Jacob Moosman said, "After approximately five hours, 62-year-old male individual gave, made the right decision and came out, and we were able to take him safely out of that situation."
Police are not confirming the man's name, but neighbors we spoke with were shocked by who was involved. They say this man is a great guy, a family man who worked in a very pressure-filled job field.
Police are not commenting on what upset the man so much.
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Guest
Guest
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Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
I miss thoughtpolice.
I miss thoughtpolice.
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
In case anyone is wondering, I am not dead. Although it was very close to my house.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6213674
Police shoot and kill man during standoff in Santaquin
April 20th, 2009 @ 6:45am
By Shara Park
SANTAQUIN -- A standoff with police ended late Sunday night when officers shot and killed a man who leveled a shotgun at them.
The standoff began shortly before 9 p.m. at a home near 200 East and 200 North in Santaquin and lasted nearly two hours.
A relative of 34-year-old Michael Batchelor called 911 dispatchers saying Batchelor was inside his house refusing to come out and that they believed he had suffered a gunshot wound.
Officers arrived to find Batchelor's father and sister locked outside the house, unable to get in. At that time officers heard a crash inside the home, and thinking Batchelor was still alive and needing assistance, they kicked in the back door and went inside.
Santaquin Police Chief Dennis Howard said, "Once in the house, they heard the victim rack the shotgun once again and ordered them out of the house."
Once SWAT teams arrive, the officers complied with Batchelor's request and left the house, but as they were leaving Batchelor made the statement: "You know how this is going to end" to one of the officers.
SWAT teams continued to communicate with Batchelor, and at one point used a robot to deliver a phone inside to him, but he refused to pick up. After about 20 minutes Batchelor came out of the house.
"The suspect came out of the house, out of the back room and leveled a shotgun at the officers, at which time one of the SWAT officers fired at 10:43. Mr. Batchelor was confirmed deceased."
Police say Batchelor had been in contact with most of his family during the standoff and told them good-bye before he was shot.
Police say he was married with three children. They also tell us that he was currently having alcohol and marital problems.
In case anyone is wondering, I am not dead. Although it was very close to my house.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6213674
Police shoot and kill man during standoff in Santaquin
April 20th, 2009 @ 6:45am
By Shara Park
SANTAQUIN -- A standoff with police ended late Sunday night when officers shot and killed a man who leveled a shotgun at them.
The standoff began shortly before 9 p.m. at a home near 200 East and 200 North in Santaquin and lasted nearly two hours.
A relative of 34-year-old Michael Batchelor called 911 dispatchers saying Batchelor was inside his house refusing to come out and that they believed he had suffered a gunshot wound.
Officers arrived to find Batchelor's father and sister locked outside the house, unable to get in. At that time officers heard a crash inside the home, and thinking Batchelor was still alive and needing assistance, they kicked in the back door and went inside.
Santaquin Police Chief Dennis Howard said, "Once in the house, they heard the victim rack the shotgun once again and ordered them out of the house."
Once SWAT teams arrive, the officers complied with Batchelor's request and left the house, but as they were leaving Batchelor made the statement: "You know how this is going to end" to one of the officers.
SWAT teams continued to communicate with Batchelor, and at one point used a robot to deliver a phone inside to him, but he refused to pick up. After about 20 minutes Batchelor came out of the house.
"The suspect came out of the house, out of the back room and leveled a shotgun at the officers, at which time one of the SWAT officers fired at 10:43. Mr. Batchelor was confirmed deceased."
Police say Batchelor had been in contact with most of his family during the standoff and told them good-bye before he was shot.
Police say he was married with three children. They also tell us that he was currently having alcohol and marital problems.
buncopanies
Banned
imported post
SGT Jensen wrote:
SGT Jensen wrote:
do you need some leave time?
thx997303
Regular Member
imported post
All soldiers need leave time.
All soldiers need leave time.
utbagpiper
Banned
imported post
SGT Jensen wrote:
I note the common theme in all of these stories is that the deceased was shot dead ONLY after he pointed or even shot a gun at the police officers. Note in this most recent story that the police actually complied with the property owners demand that they leave the building.
The one fellow who surrendered, and came out unarmed was taken into custody without harm.
A while back another guy seems to have managed to avoid even having to surrender by never displaying a weapon, refusing to leave his home, and then getting the media and judges involved asking, "Why is my home under siege? What crime have I committed and why should I come out and get arrested when I've done nothing wrong?"
The moral of all these stories seems to be, don't get into an armed conflict with the police. Don't threaten the police with violence. Indeed, don't threaten anyone (including yourself) with violence. Right or wrong, (attempted) suicide IS still viewed as prima facia evidence of mental illness in this State and most other places in the nation. If you feel an overwhelming urge to end your life, either seek proper help, OR, man up and get it over with before someone shows up to either stop you or do the deed for you.
And if the cops do show up, don't threaten them with violence. If you've got the level head to stay indoors with zero others in the home, while you call the media, your laywer, your family and friends, and a couple of local judges, have a ball. Maybe a lot less invasive and expensive than getting arrested and having the home ransacked.
But it seems the safest, easiest course if one cannot avoid the cops showing up is to simply comply with their orders and sort it out in court later.
Charles
SGT Jensen wrote:
I wonder what you'd like the police to do when someone calls them about an armed, possibly suicidal man with a gun? Sadly, too many "suicidal" people decide that rather than just going it alone, they'd like to take someone with them.
I note the common theme in all of these stories is that the deceased was shot dead ONLY after he pointed or even shot a gun at the police officers. Note in this most recent story that the police actually complied with the property owners demand that they leave the building.
The one fellow who surrendered, and came out unarmed was taken into custody without harm.
A while back another guy seems to have managed to avoid even having to surrender by never displaying a weapon, refusing to leave his home, and then getting the media and judges involved asking, "Why is my home under siege? What crime have I committed and why should I come out and get arrested when I've done nothing wrong?"
The moral of all these stories seems to be, don't get into an armed conflict with the police. Don't threaten the police with violence. Indeed, don't threaten anyone (including yourself) with violence. Right or wrong, (attempted) suicide IS still viewed as prima facia evidence of mental illness in this State and most other places in the nation. If you feel an overwhelming urge to end your life, either seek proper help, OR, man up and get it over with before someone shows up to either stop you or do the deed for you.
And if the cops do show up, don't threaten them with violence. If you've got the level head to stay indoors with zero others in the home, while you call the media, your laywer, your family and friends, and a couple of local judges, have a ball. Maybe a lot less invasive and expensive than getting arrested and having the home ransacked.
But it seems the safest, easiest course if one cannot avoid the cops showing up is to simply comply with their orders and sort it out in court later.
Charles
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
utbagpiper wrote:
This is going to sound bad, but you asked. If I am sitting in my home, holding a shotgun in my mouth, I have commited no crime. Criminally speaking, there is no reason to send more men with guns to try to talk me out of it.
Suicide is a cowards way out. Like you said, if you are going to threaten it, man up and do it already. Just do it in the shower so the mess is easier to clean up. Preferably, use a clean method, like sitting in a closed garage with the car running.
Sending a bunch of trigger happy men is not going to convince the majority of dipsticks to reason. Most of these cases prove that it just agitates the situation further, and having somebody else take your life becomes the easier decision.
If I am threating suicide, and have threatened violence to others in the process, then by all means, send the men with guns. It is better that they take me out before I take my family with me. The news already has enough stories were some idiot killed his whole family before offing himself.
Bottom line is this. If you feel like your loved one is going to use a firearm tokill him or herself, disarm the person or get the hell out! Find a trusted friendto reason with the suicidal person. SWAT teams are not crisis counsellors.
These are my opinions, and mine only. You asked.
utbagpiper wrote:
Same thing I would like the police to do when somebody calls 911 to report a "man with a gun". Ask more questions, provide assistance if needed.
This is going to sound bad, but you asked. If I am sitting in my home, holding a shotgun in my mouth, I have commited no crime. Criminally speaking, there is no reason to send more men with guns to try to talk me out of it.
Suicide is a cowards way out. Like you said, if you are going to threaten it, man up and do it already. Just do it in the shower so the mess is easier to clean up. Preferably, use a clean method, like sitting in a closed garage with the car running.
Sending a bunch of trigger happy men is not going to convince the majority of dipsticks to reason. Most of these cases prove that it just agitates the situation further, and having somebody else take your life becomes the easier decision.
If I am threating suicide, and have threatened violence to others in the process, then by all means, send the men with guns. It is better that they take me out before I take my family with me. The news already has enough stories were some idiot killed his whole family before offing himself.
Bottom line is this. If you feel like your loved one is going to use a firearm tokill him or herself, disarm the person or get the hell out! Find a trusted friendto reason with the suicidal person. SWAT teams are not crisis counsellors.
These are my opinions, and mine only. You asked.
utbagpiper
Banned
imported post
SGT Jensen wrote:
I think the real message needs to go to those who start acting up with a gun. The message is "Don't." Don't get stupid with a gun. Don't commit suicide; get help. But if you are going to do, then do it without harming others.
But at the end of the day, I think the cops have to respond if there is reasonable indication that someone is going to discharge a gun in an urban area, even if the intended target is himself. It is one thing to ignore a mentally ill person living alone on a 200 acre spread. It is quite another to ignore him in downtown WVC, Sandy, etc.
Bullets don't always stop in their intended target, even if the target is hit. And FAR too many suicidal folks do seem to end up wanting company at some point....if only to FORCE someone else to shoot them.
I'm just having a hard time criticizing the cops in these cases. We are NOT talking about random searches or the police instigating a situation. If a man wants to tell the cops to get lost when they show up, fine with me. Just don't brandish a gun or threaten violence, or even suicide.
For better or worse, our society still believes that suicide is not a rational decision and that we have some obligation to protect even adults from harming themselves while mentally ill. While that has some imperfect ramifications, the ramifications from the alternate position are no less troubling given a bit of thought.
Charles
SGT Jensen wrote:
I respect your opinion on this and don't disagree. But I note that most of your opinion is based on what family or friends should do (mostly NOT call the cops if someone is threatening only himself). Even then, pretty dicey walking back into a home you left several hours earlier when your SO was acting suicidal. Did he just get drunk and sleep it off and now life is good? Did he do the deed and you get to find him all over the kitchen? Or is he now distraught AND paranoid?
I think the real message needs to go to those who start acting up with a gun. The message is "Don't." Don't get stupid with a gun. Don't commit suicide; get help. But if you are going to do, then do it without harming others.
But at the end of the day, I think the cops have to respond if there is reasonable indication that someone is going to discharge a gun in an urban area, even if the intended target is himself. It is one thing to ignore a mentally ill person living alone on a 200 acre spread. It is quite another to ignore him in downtown WVC, Sandy, etc.
Bullets don't always stop in their intended target, even if the target is hit. And FAR too many suicidal folks do seem to end up wanting company at some point....if only to FORCE someone else to shoot them.
I'm just having a hard time criticizing the cops in these cases. We are NOT talking about random searches or the police instigating a situation. If a man wants to tell the cops to get lost when they show up, fine with me. Just don't brandish a gun or threaten violence, or even suicide.
For better or worse, our society still believes that suicide is not a rational decision and that we have some obligation to protect even adults from harming themselves while mentally ill. While that has some imperfect ramifications, the ramifications from the alternate position are no less troubling given a bit of thought.
Charles
buncopanies
Banned
imported post
So sgt Jensen, What makes you such an expert?
you have all the answers why dont you fix it all. Its pretty easy to be an expert from behind your keyboard...
Those brave men that dealt with that situation have my admiration and respect.
No one likes the outcome. And time and time again this has played out accross the globe.
When you can do better then by all means educate the world leaders and have world peace.
But until then we all expect you barage against brave and honest men to continue.
So sgt Jensen, What makes you such an expert?
you have all the answers why dont you fix it all. Its pretty easy to be an expert from behind your keyboard...
Those brave men that dealt with that situation have my admiration and respect.
No one likes the outcome. And time and time again this has played out accross the globe.
When you can do better then by all means educate the world leaders and have world peace.
But until then we all expect you barage against brave and honest men to continue.
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
buncopanies wrote:
Ihave never claimed to be an expert, nor have I claimed to have any answers to fix anything.
However, I do have suggestions that you may or may not agree with.
1. If your loved ones threaten to shoot themselves, don't call more men with guns.
2. Either blow your brains out, or come out in a non-threatening manner.
3. If you want to be killed by a cop, (or anybody elsewith a gun, for that matter) go ahead and be a dumbass and point afirearm at him.
Brave and honest men, huh? I think I've heard that line before... Oh yeah! All of those people that have no clue who I am, whosaid they areproud of me and support me for currently "fighting for your freedom, here in Iraq".<--- (Not my belief, by the way)
I am by no means blowing my own horn here, but why is it that I get blasted for taking an unpopular position when it comes to the police? Should not I be lumped into the "brave and honest" group sinceI am a deployed soldier, and be immune to criticism? Do I not deserve your "admiration and respect"?
I have never expected special treatment because of my chosen profession, nor will treat others favorably because of thiers. I do not know any of the officers in any of the storieI have posted. None of them have my respect, becauseI do not know them. Respect is to be earned, not given away.
If you want to blanketly assume that all cops are honest and brave, and deserve your respect and admiration,then that is your perrogative. But since your opinion of me is obviously at the other end of that spectrum, I will assume you hold the same for my fellow service members.
buncopanies wrote:
Ihave never claimed to be an expert, nor have I claimed to have any answers to fix anything.
However, I do have suggestions that you may or may not agree with.
1. If your loved ones threaten to shoot themselves, don't call more men with guns.
2. Either blow your brains out, or come out in a non-threatening manner.
3. If you want to be killed by a cop, (or anybody elsewith a gun, for that matter) go ahead and be a dumbass and point afirearm at him.
Brave and honest men, huh? I think I've heard that line before... Oh yeah! All of those people that have no clue who I am, whosaid they areproud of me and support me for currently "fighting for your freedom, here in Iraq".<--- (Not my belief, by the way)
I am by no means blowing my own horn here, but why is it that I get blasted for taking an unpopular position when it comes to the police? Should not I be lumped into the "brave and honest" group sinceI am a deployed soldier, and be immune to criticism? Do I not deserve your "admiration and respect"?
I have never expected special treatment because of my chosen profession, nor will treat others favorably because of thiers. I do not know any of the officers in any of the storieI have posted. None of them have my respect, becauseI do not know them. Respect is to be earned, not given away.
If you want to blanketly assume that all cops are honest and brave, and deserve your respect and admiration,then that is your perrogative. But since your opinion of me is obviously at the other end of that spectrum, I will assume you hold the same for my fellow service members.
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
OK, I know that some (most?)here think I will fault the police every time on these shootings, but this guy got what he deserved.
Fire your shotgun at the Sheriffs, and they are going to fire back. Most likely with better accuracy. Good shoot, SLCSO!
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=7026792
Salt Lake County DA: Shooting of Millcreek man justified
July 2nd, 2009 @ 5:22pm
OK, I know that some (most?)here think I will fault the police every time on these shootings, but this guy got what he deserved.
Fire your shotgun at the Sheriffs, and they are going to fire back. Most likely with better accuracy. Good shoot, SLCSO!
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=7026792
Salt Lake County DA: Shooting of Millcreek man justified
July 2nd, 2009 @ 5:22pm
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
I still torn on this one. The story is vague, and it appears the man was unamrmed.
However, it does sound as if he was in need of some level of police brutality.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7031039
West Jordan police officer cleared in shooting death
July 3rd, 2009 @ 7:17am
I still torn on this one. The story is vague, and it appears the man was unamrmed.
However, it does sound as if he was in need of some level of police brutality.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7031039
West Jordan police officer cleared in shooting death
July 3rd, 2009 @ 7:17am
utbagpiper
Banned
imported post
SGT Jensen wrote:
Once he jumped from the truck though, things get muddied. He is no longer in control of the truck and so that can't be his deadly weapon.
However, if he had a gun, knife, or other weapon on his person, his demonstrated willingness to use deadly force would certainly justify acting defensively against him.
Even without such weapons, we may well have to cut the officer/victim some slack on this one due to the whole "heat of the moment" thing. A guy just tried to kill you and you manage to shoot him seconds after he disposes of his weapon. I doubt any of us would want to be judged too harshly if we shot 5 or 10 seconds after someone went from being an immediate danger to maybe not being a danger. Easy to analyze that after the fact. But in the heat of the moment, pretty tough to be so precise.
Remember the private homeowner a while back who chased home invaders out of his home and fired at them part way down the street? The DA chose not to charge him and I'd expect the pace at which things happened had to be a part of that decision.
This all said, I'm not sure what cases of police shootings have to do with lawful OC by citizens. Maybe a reminder that one ought not give police any reason to think you pose any danger to them when you are armed?
Charles
SGT Jensen wrote:
A 4,000 pound automobile is every bit as deadly as a firearm. And had he been shot while he sat in the driver seat I'd have to agree 100% with using deadly force to defend against deadly force.I still torn on this one. The story is vague, and it appears the man was unamrmed.
However, it does sound as if he was in need of some level of police brutality.
Once he jumped from the truck though, things get muddied. He is no longer in control of the truck and so that can't be his deadly weapon.
However, if he had a gun, knife, or other weapon on his person, his demonstrated willingness to use deadly force would certainly justify acting defensively against him.
Even without such weapons, we may well have to cut the officer/victim some slack on this one due to the whole "heat of the moment" thing. A guy just tried to kill you and you manage to shoot him seconds after he disposes of his weapon. I doubt any of us would want to be judged too harshly if we shot 5 or 10 seconds after someone went from being an immediate danger to maybe not being a danger. Easy to analyze that after the fact. But in the heat of the moment, pretty tough to be so precise.
Remember the private homeowner a while back who chased home invaders out of his home and fired at them part way down the street? The DA chose not to charge him and I'd expect the pace at which things happened had to be a part of that decision.
This all said, I'm not sure what cases of police shootings have to do with lawful OC by citizens. Maybe a reminder that one ought not give police any reason to think you pose any danger to them when you are armed?
Charles
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
utbagpiper wrote:
utbagpiper wrote:
Sounds reasonable.This all said, I'm not sure what cases of police shootings have to do with lawful OC by citizens. Maybe a reminder that one ought not give police any reason to think you pose any danger to them when you are armed?
b1ack5mith
Regular Member
imported post
kevin says what everyone (well, us "constitutionalists") is thinking. I think he should start a video blog on youtube, ranting about anything you feel like discussing! i would seriously watch it all day, itll be like glen beck, with guns!
how many more days kevin!!! were excited to see ya!!!!
kevin says what everyone (well, us "constitutionalists") is thinking. I think he should start a video blog on youtube, ranting about anything you feel like discussing! i would seriously watch it all day, itll be like glen beck, with guns!
how many more days kevin!!! were excited to see ya!!!!
scorpioajr
Regular Member
imported post
holy cow wrote:
..so WHO CARES?
Cops did society a favor IMO, but hey- what do i know? i don't know why this thread is still going, WHO CARES about this dude? Seriously, speak up.
holy cow wrote:
You mean Cops 1, Losers 1, right? The dude was a sex offender (for the second time..)
..so WHO CARES?
Cops did society a favor IMO, but hey- what do i know? i don't know why this thread is still going, WHO CARES about this dude? Seriously, speak up.
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
This coming from the guy who posts in that goddamned cow thread?