Fiance trouble

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Task Force 16 wrote:

I just re-read the OP, and I realized that you stated that ONE of her classes is the one that has taughther that "men and women are the same, society controls how they develop... movies/shows that depict men shooting and such make men grow up to be violent/feel the need to be "manly" and own guns".

At the risk of getting flamed, I'm going to have to agree, to a degree, with what she has been taught. We have been conditioned toexpect certain behaviors from men and women. Just as we have all been conditioned since childhood to expect to grow up, finish HS, maybe go to college, land a good job,find a mate, get married, and raise children. We have been conditioned to believe that there is a negative stigma to veering from this plan. "Old Miads" were made fun of. Remember when you were in high school, anyone that didn't have a gf/bf by the time they were juniors were made fun of, as being not good enough as dating material?

Yes, I have to agree with the notion that "society controls how men and women develop", at least it tries to. But then there are always some of us that are always bucking the system, in defiance.

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Of course I too agree to a certain extent with the premise, but here's where it gets a little sketchy: it's not the PREMISE that I have a problem with, it's the fact that when they are talking about something like men being conditioned to be more violent and think they should own guns they are really talking about bluring the lines between genders and erasing any gender roles that men and women have been created to fulfill. That's the sketchy part in dealing with all of this, that there is always some truth to a lie, and it's hard to explain to some people that the premise of what they are learning is somewhat true, but the motive behind teaching it and the direction that it is taught in is a little more insidious.

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Task Force 16 wrote:

I just re-read the OP, and I realized that you stated that ONE of her classes is the one that has taughther that "men and women are the same, society controls how they develop... movies/shows that depict men shooting and such make men grow up to be violent/feel the need to be "manly" and own guns".

At the risk of getting flamed, I'm going to have to agree, to a degree, with what she has been taught. We have been conditioned toexpect certain behaviors from men and women. Just as we have all been conditioned since childhood to expect to grow up, finish HS, maybe go to college, land a good job,find a mate, get married, and raise children. We have been conditioned to believe that there is a negative stigma to veering from this plan. "Old Miads" were made fun of. Remember when you were in high school, anyone that didn't have a gf/bf by the time they were juniors were made fun of, as being not good enough as dating material?

Yes, I have to agree with the notion that "society controls how men and women develop", at least it tries to. But then there are always some of us that are always bucking the system, in defiance.

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What you are talking about is nature vs nurture. Lots of studies on this topic. Funny how research has shown that even at a young age, long before they have been "conditioned" by society the genders engage in very different behavior. From picking toys to playing, how they interact with the toys and what kinds of games they play. Males and females are different, and that's okay, anyone that teaches that they are the samefrom birth (nature) is ignorant and pushing some agenda. Viva la difference.

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+1 thank God for people like you.

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Because the view that gender-based behavior is biologically determined is the MINORITY view in science, it would prudent to find data to support your argument.

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]References

[/font] [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Berenbaum (1999). Effects of early androgens on sex-typed activities and interests in adolescents with congenital adrenal hyperplasia. Hormones and Behavior, 35, 102-110.[/font][*]Carlson (2001). Physiology of Behavior, 7th edition, Allyn & Bacon [*]De Vries GJ, Boyle PA. 1998. Double duty for sex differences in the brain. Behav. Brain Res. 92: 205-213. Available online [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Diamond and Sigmundson [/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"](1997). Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine Vol.151, No.3, pp.298-304 [/font] [*]Diamond (1965). A critical evaluation of the ontogeny of human sexual behavior. class="h4"The Quarterly Review of Biology
Volume 40, No. 2, June 1965. Available online [*]Diamond (2000).Sex and Gender: Same or Different? class="h4". Feminism & Psychology, Volume 10 (1): 46-54, 2000. Available online [*]Ellis & Ames, Psychological Bulletin, 1987, 101, 233-258 an early review of the psychosexual differentiation literature that puts forward a biological theory of sexual orientation [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Ehrhardt (1975). Prenatal Hormone Exposure and Psychosexual Differentiation. In Sachar (Ed) Topics in Psychoendocrinology, Grune & Stratton.[/font] [*]Francis (2000) "Is Gender a social construct or a biological imperative?". Paper presented at the Seventh Australian Institute of Family Studies Conference Family futures: issues in research and policy: Sydney 24 - 26 July 2000. Available online [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Gorski (1980). Sexual differentiation of the brain. In Krieger & Hughes (Eds). Neuroendocrinology, Sinauer, Sunderland, Mass.[/font] [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Hawkes (1997). The Times, March 15th[/font] [*]Holden, Science, 1992, 255, 33 - a review of Bailey et al by scientific journalist. [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Horizon, (2000). "The boy who was turned into a girl", BBC, Transmitted in December 2000)[/font] [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Money and Ehrhardt[/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] (1972) Man & Woman, Boy & Girl. , John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore.[/font] [*][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Money, Schwartz & Lewis [/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"](1984). Psychoneuroendocrinology, 9, 405-414.[/font] [*]Nimmons (1994). Sex and the brain. Discover Archives, March 1994. Report of an interview with Simon LeVay, covers LeVay's reactions to criticisms of his work, and how his career changed after publication of the science paper in 1991. [*]Wilson JD. (2001) Androgens, androgen receptors, and male gender role behavior. Horm Behav 2001 40: 358-66. Available online

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Boys and girls are different. Is it because of Nature? Maybe. Is it because of Nurture? Maybe. Does it matter which? Not really.

You've been raised, brought up and (assuming nurture), conditioned to be a 'man'. To you, this means that it's your duty and responsibility to protect those that you care about. I was brought up the same way. I have a younger sister, and the only time in my life that I've ever been in a physical fight was to protect her. The 'duty' to protecther is so ingrained in my mentality that the decision to defend her is barely a concious one.

My personal opinion is that what matters here is weather or not your fiance appreciates your desire to protect or not. Her 'learning' is of little relevance - weather or not we agree with it, and weather or not it's correct. Everyone has a basic desire to be appreciated - and there is nothing wrong with that. Does she appreciate that you would put yourself and every tool at your disposal between her and harm? Does she understand and accept that there are occasions where loud words and threatening gestures are simply not enough to prevent that harm? Does she have an honest problem with you carrying any necessary tool to defend yourself, her, and those that you and she care about?

If the answers to the above are yes, yes, and no respectively, then I think that you should engage in lively discussion about her 'learning' without being condescending. Women, by nature (or nurture?) love to debate (at least, all the women I know). Many of them, contrary to popular belief, even want to be proven wrong! What they do not want, however, is to be spoken to as if they are stupid, dumb, or wrong "just because". Engage her! Debate with Her! Ask her to help you understand. Pose questions - when she answers them, pose some more.

Congradulations on the upcomming wedding.

Ben

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I think my head is gunna....splode! We're going to have to have some more Dilitheum crystals! Boys will be boys and girls will be girls... unless.. never mind.springerdave.

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sictransitgloria wrote:

Of course I too agree to a certain extent with the premise, but here's where it gets a little sketchy: it's not the PREMISE that I have a problem with, it's the fact that when they are talking about something like men being conditioned to be more violent and think they should own guns they are really talking about bluring the lines between genders and erasing any gender roles that men and women have been created to fulfill. That's the sketchy part in dealing with all of this, that there is always some truth to a lie, and it's hard to explain to some people that the premise of what they are learning is somewhat true, but the motive behind teaching it and the direction that it is taught in is a little more insidious.

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I am starting to get the feeling that this course actually has very little to do with your concern about your fiance but something else entirely that this class is bringing out. It appears that through this class or maybe from her attendance of college she is starting to want to be more independent of herself. However you are wanting her to be subserviant to you. This is the traditional male/female role in society that is changing whether we want it to or not. In the 50's the role of the wife was to remain at home and the husband was to be the breadwinner and protector of the family. This is the role that you see for you and her. However she is seeing the role of both being breadwinners and maybe not your equal but not necessarily dependant on you for protection.

When my three daughters were born I could tell teh difference in their personalities when the were less than 6 hours old. Those differences have continued to their adulthood. Certain traits are inborn but others are from society and parental upbringing. Much is based on physical features. For instance and very athletic girl may be considered more "manly" because she plays sports or just out performs boys in games. A boy with a small frame and not well coordinatedmay be considered a sissy.

I think you need to look at yourself and your fiance and ask if you are going to accept a bride that wants to be independent of you. What will you do if you wind up like my father having to depend on his wife for protection and support due to a heart attack at the age of 27? This was in the 50's when women had no rights.

You are ranting about the class and maybe she is taking it too factual and maybe it is something new to her. But just because she finishes with the class doesn't mean she is going to forget what she learned in it. Either way is sounds to me that something is either changing or there is something else going on between the two of you. The gender lines have been bluring since the start of WWII when the women stayed home and did the jobs left bythe men overseas fighting. Aks yourself what are you going to do when she finishes college and starts making much more than you? Is that going to be a problem as with many men?

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PT111 wrote:

Ask yourself what are you going to do when she finishes college and starts making much more than you?  Is that going to be a problem as with many men? 

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All I have to say is this: If my wife starts making more than me (and not as a result of me losing my income), I'll be the happiest man alive. I'll also be driving a brand new car.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

PT111 wrote:

Ask yourself what are you going to do when she finishes college and starts making much more than you? Is that going to be a problem as with many men?

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All I have to say is this: If my wife starts making more than me (and not as a result of me losing my income), I'll be the happiest man alive. I'll also be driving a brand new car.

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Actually my wife makes more than me and we bought a new carthis pastSaturday.

It is strange but many men really resent the fact that their wives make more than them. :what:

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My last girl fiend ( yes I spelled it right ) left me because of guns vs inheritance daddy said if you don't get him to give up his firearms or leave him you get no inheritance .
I kept my guns she left oh well a bunch less libtards in my life right ?
WRONG !!! someone "violated the peace of their sanctum " yup that 's a quote seems I was to run right over to them and protect them I told them to get an alarm system and a safe room .

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dukenukum wrote:

My last girl fiend

I kept my guns she left oh well a bunch less libtards in my life right ?
WRONG !!! someone "violated the peace of their sanctum " yup that 's a quote seems I was to run right over to them and protect them I told them to get an alarm system and a safe room .

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I can appreciate the use of "fiend"; for some it is TOTALLY appropriate.

Well, when this happens, it furthers my belief in karma... I wonder if the violator of their peace knew how they felt about firearms... hmmm, great post!

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PT111 wrote:

I am starting to get the feeling that this course actually has very little to do with your concern about your fiance but something else entirely that this class is bringing out. It appears that through this class or maybe from her attendance of college she is starting to want to be more independent of herself. However you are wanting her to be subserviant to you. This is the traditional male/female role in society that is changing whether we want it to or not. In the 50's the role of the wife was to remain at home and the husband was to be the breadwinner and protector of the family. This is the role that you see for you and her. However she is seeing the role of both being breadwinners and maybe not your equal but not necessarily dependant on you for protection.

When my three daughters were born I could tell teh difference in their personalities when the were less than 6 hours old. Those differences have continued to their adulthood. Certain traits are inborn but others are from society and parental upbringing. Much is based on physical features. For instance and very athletic girl may be considered more "manly" because she plays sports or just out performs boys in games. A boy with a small frame and not well coordinatedmay be considered a sissy.

I think you need to look at yourself and your fiance and ask if you are going to accept a bride that wants to be independent of you. What will you do if you wind up like my father having to depend on his wife for protection and support due to a heart attack at the age of 27? This was in the 50's when women had no rights.

You are ranting about the class and maybe she is taking it too factual and maybe it is something new to her. But just because she finishes with the class doesn't mean she is going to forget what she learned in it. Either way is sounds to me that something is either changing or there is something else going on between the two of you. The gender lines have been bluring since the start of WWII when the women stayed home and did the jobs left bythe men overseas fighting. Aks yourself what are you going to do when she finishes college and starts making much more than you? Is that going to be a problem as with many men?

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Just a tad offended and annoyed that you presume to know so much about my intentions for the love of my life and seem to assume that I for some reason am going to be upset when she makes more money than me. Those are tactics of someone who truly isn't trying to help but is just looking for a fight/argument/devil's advocacy in everything, and unlike everyone else's helpful advice/opinions, yours is one of assumption and arrogancy.

As to the "I am wanting her to be subservient to me", well, I'll just say that nothing in my post has expressed anything other than concern and care for her and concern for not wanting to fight with the girl I plan on spending my life with. Please read more carefully before attacking me.

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Maybe it's my imagination, but I can already see improvements. We're both a little stressed out from me working 2 jobs for 50 hours a week and going to school full time and her with school and work, when we get together we sometimes take some stress out on each other. But we watched the news, some special about Mexico violence spreading to Phoenix AZ. She said "that's really happening in the US?" I said yeah. She got closer to me.

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sictransitgloria:

When is the wedding? If you have enough time, write down questions that are crucial to you and have her do the same. Not questions about favorite foods or things that you can learn about her in the long run but issues like financial positions, gun rights (if this is big with you), politics, pro-life, religion, if you want children, how much money either of you can spend before asking the other's permission, etc. I mean serious issues that will, if not discussed now, breakup a marriage in the long haul. If it's important to you and her, give it a few days or week, take it to a neutral area (not a boxing ring!) but some place that will motivate each of you to keep it a rational conversation.

Dr Phil, I mean Dr Todd, might be able to assist in this department through PMs.

Maybe off set the wedding date, if it's soon, so that you two can resolve a few issues and then plan it for a later date. If you can't communicate rationally, worst comes to worst, you break up and learn from that experience.

Hope for the very best and expect the very worst. Good luck!



Custom.45acp

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sictransitgloria wrote:

Just a tad offended and annoyed that you presume to know so much about my intentions for the love of my life and seem to assume that I for some reason am going to be upset when she makes more money than me. Those are tactics of someone who truly isn't trying to help but is just looking for a fight/argument/devil's advocacy in everything, and unlike everyone else's helpful advice/opinions, yours is one of assumption and arrogancy.

As to the "I am wanting her to be subservient to me", well, I'll just say that nothing in my post has expressed anything other than concern and care for her and concern for not wanting to fight with the girl I plan on spending my life with. Please read more carefully before attacking me.

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"More of a freaking out rant, than anything, but comments are welcome."

Comments come in varieties you may like, and that you may not like. I disagree with the comments, and obviously, you do as well - but, I think it is important to remember that all comments have value - even if they are not what we think/feel/expect/want.

Ben

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Thanks, I think we'll do that. We're meeting with a close friend of the family who's a pastor in a couple days, so maybe we'll suprise him with those lists and see where it goes.

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PilotPTK wrote:

"More of a freaking out rant, than anything, but comments are welcome."

Comments come in varieties you may like, and that you may not like. I disagree with the comments, and obviously, you do as well - but, I think it is important to remember that all comments have value - even if they are not what we think/feel/expect/want.

Ben

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Haha, yeah. Hoping for comments a little more along the lines of custom.45acp's. I can deal with people making the case for putting off the wedding/ending things/talking about how incompatibility makes for divorce, I just get annoyed when people presume and contradict what I've already said. Oh well.

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Hehe.. reminds me ofa saying I see fairly often on message boards..

"These opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them"

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custom.45acp wrote:

sictransitgloria:

When is the wedding? If you have enough time, write down questions that are crucial to you and have her do the same. Not questions about favorite foods or things that you can learn about her in the long run but issues like financial positions, gun rights (if this is big with you), politics, pro-life, religion, if you want children, how much money either of you can spend before asking the other's permission, etc. I mean serious issues that will, if not discussed now, breakup a marriage in the long haul. If it's important to you and her, give it a few days or week, take it to a neutral area (not a boxing ring!) but some place that will motivate each of you to keep it a rational conversation.

Dr Phil, I mean Dr Todd, might be able to assist in this department through PMs.

Maybe off set the wedding date, if it's soon, so that you two can resolve a few issues and then plan it for a later date. If you can't communicate rationally, worst comes to worst, you break up and learn from that experience.

Hope for the very best and expect the very worst. Good luck!

Custom.45acp



Custom.45acp

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Wonderful advice. I have been married for 35 years and there have been some things in our marriage that if not for the counceling we got before our wedding and both of us swallowing our pride some we would never have made it this long. Marriage will not solve problems but only add to them. I did not mean to insult the OP but only to point out a possibility that exists in many marriages that I see almost daily. One piece of advice I got from the minister that married us was that men and women are different and we must both recognize that. However we must be willing to respect each others desires. For instance a night out with the boys is expected but 6 nights a week is not. If both of you are working 50 hours a week then don't expect her to do all the house work and you sit around clean you guns.

As a few have pointed out this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it but it still may be helpful.

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custom.45acp wrote:

sictransitgloria:

When is the wedding? If you have enough time, write down questions that are crucial to you and have her do the same. Not questions about favorite foods or things that you can learn about her in the long run but issues like financial positions, gun rights (if this is big with you), politics, pro-life, religion, if you want children, how much money either of you can spend before asking the other's permission, etc. I mean serious issues that will, if not discussed now, breakup a marriage in the long haul. If it's important to you and her, give it a few days or week, take it to a neutral area (not a boxing ring!) but some place that will motivate each of you to keep it a rational conversation.

Dr Phil, I mean Dr Todd,

Custom.45acp



Custom.45acp

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Ah not quite...