Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
sltrib.com/ci_11808834
Out-of-state gun instructors may hurt Utah permit
NRA veto? » Local pro-gun groups are unhappy with bill rewrite.
By Sheena Mcfarland
The Salt Lake Tribune
Utah's concealed-weapons permit is heralded as the platinum card of permits, accepted in 33 other states. But it may be taking on some tarnish.
Problems with out-of-state instructors rubber stamping permits or not properly teaching classes has raised the concern of some of those states, and Utah gun-rights advocates worry they will stop recognizing the permit.
Rep. Curt Oda, R-Clearfield, originally drafted a bill that would eliminate all out-of-state instructors in Utah concealed-carry permit process. However, the National Rifle Association balked at taking such a drastic step, and persuaded Oda to rewrite the legislation.
"We fear this bill is not going to be sufficient to clean up the problems and to make sure the widespread recognition of the Utah permit is protected," said Charles Hardy, policy director for the Gun Owners of Utah. "We would hope the NRA would step up a bit and help us weed out these bad instructors so we can address this problem, real or perceived."
It is the first major public dispute in memory between the NRA and local gun-rights groups.
While Oda's bill would require a written complaint about a bad instructor and require the Bureau of Criminal Identification (BCI), which oversees the permits, to investigate the problem within 30 days, the problem comes down to collecting evidence outside of Utah.
Even Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. is worried. He has not seen the new version of the bill, but has talked with Oda and NRA officials about nonresident instructors.
"What I was concerned about was quality control. Do we have some way to measure the quality and standards that are being implemented if it has our name on it?" Huntsman said.
The simple answer: No.
"We can't fly out to some other state to collect evidence," said Lt. Doug Anderson, program manager at BCI. "It's almost impossible to collect the evidence to substantiate a claim from out-of-state."
Currently, three different states' concealed-permit agencies have contacted Anderson with concerns over instructors simply taking an applicant's money and approving a license with no instruction, or of instructors not properly teaching Utah laws.
"It's important that if someone is going to carry a concealed, loaded firearm in a public setting, and something happens, that person has the knowledge needed to act justifiably," Anderson said.
Oda says BCI investigators can conduct investigations over the phone, but Anderson says that likely will not provide enough evidence.
"It will turn into a he-said, she-said situation," he said.
BCI already has a complaint system and has documentation of problems with about a dozen instructors in and out of the state. A backlog of out-of-state instructor complaints already exists and likely will go nowhere as BCI doesn't have the resources to pursue them.
Oda's bill has no additional funding for more instructors or for out-of-state travel.
Regulating in-state instructors is much easier, and BCI randomly attends instructors' classes and has pre-emptive talks with instructors about potential problems, Anderson said. Such steps aren't possible in other states.
That lack of oversight makes many gun-rights advocates worry that other states will stop recognizing Utah's permit. If that happens, Hardy said it would make Utah's permit less valuable to the current 150,000 permit holders nationwide, half of whom are Utahns.
"We would hope the many law-abiding, good instructors would police themselves instead of have a few bad apples ruin it for everyone," Hardy said.
sltrib.com/ci_11808834
Out-of-state gun instructors may hurt Utah permit
NRA veto? » Local pro-gun groups are unhappy with bill rewrite.
By Sheena Mcfarland
The Salt Lake Tribune
Utah's concealed-weapons permit is heralded as the platinum card of permits, accepted in 33 other states. But it may be taking on some tarnish.
Problems with out-of-state instructors rubber stamping permits or not properly teaching classes has raised the concern of some of those states, and Utah gun-rights advocates worry they will stop recognizing the permit.
Rep. Curt Oda, R-Clearfield, originally drafted a bill that would eliminate all out-of-state instructors in Utah concealed-carry permit process. However, the National Rifle Association balked at taking such a drastic step, and persuaded Oda to rewrite the legislation.
"We fear this bill is not going to be sufficient to clean up the problems and to make sure the widespread recognition of the Utah permit is protected," said Charles Hardy, policy director for the Gun Owners of Utah. "We would hope the NRA would step up a bit and help us weed out these bad instructors so we can address this problem, real or perceived."
It is the first major public dispute in memory between the NRA and local gun-rights groups.
While Oda's bill would require a written complaint about a bad instructor and require the Bureau of Criminal Identification (BCI), which oversees the permits, to investigate the problem within 30 days, the problem comes down to collecting evidence outside of Utah.
Even Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. is worried. He has not seen the new version of the bill, but has talked with Oda and NRA officials about nonresident instructors.
"What I was concerned about was quality control. Do we have some way to measure the quality and standards that are being implemented if it has our name on it?" Huntsman said.
The simple answer: No.
"We can't fly out to some other state to collect evidence," said Lt. Doug Anderson, program manager at BCI. "It's almost impossible to collect the evidence to substantiate a claim from out-of-state."
Currently, three different states' concealed-permit agencies have contacted Anderson with concerns over instructors simply taking an applicant's money and approving a license with no instruction, or of instructors not properly teaching Utah laws.
"It's important that if someone is going to carry a concealed, loaded firearm in a public setting, and something happens, that person has the knowledge needed to act justifiably," Anderson said.
Oda says BCI investigators can conduct investigations over the phone, but Anderson says that likely will not provide enough evidence.
"It will turn into a he-said, she-said situation," he said.
BCI already has a complaint system and has documentation of problems with about a dozen instructors in and out of the state. A backlog of out-of-state instructor complaints already exists and likely will go nowhere as BCI doesn't have the resources to pursue them.
Oda's bill has no additional funding for more instructors or for out-of-state travel.
Regulating in-state instructors is much easier, and BCI randomly attends instructors' classes and has pre-emptive talks with instructors about potential problems, Anderson said. Such steps aren't possible in other states.
That lack of oversight makes many gun-rights advocates worry that other states will stop recognizing Utah's permit. If that happens, Hardy said it would make Utah's permit less valuable to the current 150,000 permit holders nationwide, half of whom are Utahns.
"We would hope the many law-abiding, good instructors would police themselves instead of have a few bad apples ruin it for everyone," Hardy said.