Getting pulled over while armed in Fairfax County.

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I was pulled over for an expired safety inspection on North Kings Hwy near RT1 Sunday afternoon. It was the first time I had to interact with LE in an enforcement capacity since I started carrying.

I was armed at the time.

I knew the officer was coming after me as soon as he turned around so I wasn’t unprepared for the lights. I pulled off into a parking lot and dug out my license and registration.

As the officer approached my window, 2 other officers arrived and looked into my van from the passenger side. I’m certain that they saw the Glock 21 on my hip.

After the usual banter about why I was pulled over the officer asked for my license and registration. I provided them. I was alone in my van and not asked to leave the van. I did NOT inform the officer that I was armed or that I had a CCP.

It took the officer a while to write up the citation and while he was doing that, one of the other officers stayed on the passenger side of my van staying out of my sight line. She would often walk in such a way to be able to see me and then walk back keeping about 10 feet from my van. The third officer stayed next to the first officer’s car where he could see me in my mirror.

While this was going on I prepared myself in case they asked me to step out. I made sure that both sets of keys were in my pocket and my wallet and phone were not on me. The only thing I had in my hand was my CCP. The plan was that if they asked me to step out, I would show the officer my CCP (even though I was OC at the time.) and let him know I was armed. I did NOT want to be shot for an invalid safety inspection.

Well the officer returned and did ask me to step out of the vehicle. I gave him my CCP and said that I was armed. He said that he already knew I had a CCP and thanked me for letting him know I was armed. He said it was ok.

I rolled up my window and as I exited the van I locked the door and immediately closed it. I also did NOT hike up my pants! He asked me some general questions about amateur radio. (I have Amateur Radio plates.) General conversation stuff.

The officer asked me toward the front of his vehicle and then explained the citation for the expired safety inspection. I’m pretty sure he did this so that my signature on the form was caught on the vehicle camera. Otherwise I’m not sure why he asked me out. He and the other officers seemed very relaxed and were quite professional.

So it went ok.

But I’m left with some questions. If I was carrying totally concealed, should I have informed the officer I was carrying or just make sure my CCP was handy? How do the officers know I have a CCP? Do they get that data when they run my license or my plates? Did the officer know I was armed when he walked up or latter? (I did notice that he stayed well back of my door when asking for my license and registration.

How does an officer feel when they see it pop up on the computer that someone they pulled over or whatever has a CCP? Are they more apprehensive or do they feel better knowing that people with a CCP have had a background check and are less likely to be a problem?

What are the statistics in VA about CCP holders shooting an officer or causing a problem at a traffic or other LE incident?

-Charles

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CharlesC wrote:

How do the officers know I have a CCP? Do they get that data when they run my license or my plates? Did the officer know I was armed when he walked up or latter? (I did notice that he stayed well back of my door when asking for my license and registration.

How does an officer feel when they see it pop up on the computer that someone they pulled over or whatever has a CCP? Are they more apprehensive or do they feel better knowing that people with a CCP have had a background check and are less likely to be a problem?

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They know you have a CCP from running your license plate.

He probably stayed well back from your door on purpose. Did you see both his hands? One was probably on his firearm in case you made any sudden moves.

It's been my experience that the fact that you had a background check, means next to nothing to them. It ought to mean a lot but it doesn't. You have a gun. That's what matters. That's why he called backup.

On occasion, I drive a car that's not registered in my name. I've been pulled over where I forgot to mention I have a concealed carry permit. They take my license and run it and see I've got a permit. They always call for backup after this. It freaks them out to know that they walked up on a car where the driver had a permit and they didn't know about it. You're not obligated by law to tell them you have a permit, nor to tell them that you're armed. That doesn't seem to matter though.

Do you have a lawyer on retainer? If not, get one. The last time I was in a traffic stop, I called my lawyer while they ran my license.

They called for backup, and I called for backup. Hahaha.

The second cop who showed up tried to lie to me and tell me I was obligated by law to show my permit. I asked him to speak to my lawyer on the phone. The cop literally ran away.

That moment is when I realized, having a lawyer on retainer is the biggest caliber gun you can carry. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have ordered me out of the car and searched me in violation of my rights. When they ask you out of the car, get them to clarify if it's an order or a request. If it's an order, get them to tell you why they're ordering you out. And always get everything on tape.

If you don't tell them you have a permit, you should realize there will be consequences. You have no legal obligation. That ought to protect you but it won't. The police can use their discretion to punish you and they will do so. Standing up for your rights can and will be painful. Admitting you have a permit and are armed is giving up your fifth amendment rights. You never know if that might be used against you later on. Here is a good video on the value of the fifth amendment. It's worth it's weight in gold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

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There is a very good book on this topic which I highly recommend. It's "You & The Police!" by Boston T. Party. Get it from Amazon.com. Full of information, it is a must for those who carry either open or concealed.

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CharlesC wrote:

Snipped........

But I’m left with some questions. If I was carrying totally concealed, should I have informed the officer I was carrying or just make sure my CCP was handy? How do the officers know I have a CCP? Do they get that data when they run my license or my plates? Did the officer know I was armed when he walked up or latter? (I did notice that he stayed well back of my door when asking for my license and registration.

How does an officer feel when they see it pop up on the computer that someone they pulled over or whatever has a CCP? Are they more apprehensive or do they feel better knowing that people with a CCP have had a background check and are less likely to be a problem?

What are the statistics in VA about CCP holders shooting an officer or causing a problem at a traffic or other LE incident?

-Charles

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We always appreciate if you tell us you are armed. In Virginia it is optional. At the start of the stop it can make the difference in a few things. Some good, some bad.

1. Being informative and allowing the officer to know can sometimes get you a warning or reduced charge. This is because so few people are actually so helpful during a stop.
2. If you have a CC permit and you are in your car there are times when we know this before we walk up to you. Having the permit really means nothing except you were not disqualified at the time of the application. If does not necessarily mean you are a good person and can be trusted at that moment. But it at least tells the officer you must not have done anything bad in the past so this is good.
3. The officer may decide that you need to be disarmed during the stop.
4. The officer may call for backup to watch you while he writes his ticket.

To answer your questions:

• Running your name produces the return on the CC permit.
• There are no statistics that I know of to show you how many people with CC permits have committed crimes or assaulted cops. I can tell you that I have in fact locked people up that had CC permits. I have to report to the courts that they have a permit. I guess the courts either revoke the permit or prepare to do so after a conviction. So how many people have I locked up that once HAD a permit??
• I suspect that everyone has a gun! A CC permit just makes me believe it even more.
• How I feel at the time of the stop? I always fear that the person in the car could cause me harm no matter who they are. Knowing they have or could have a gun causes me to have backup. If you shoot me.. my partner can shoot you. You are only going to get one of us.
• Most well trained and disciplined officers will stand behind your door never exposing themselves. It makes it harder for you to reach around and shoot us. Believe it or not... people do shoot cops during traffic stops over petty traffic violations. Cops also stop criminals leaving the scene of a crime that is reported AFTER the stop is made. Stolen vehicles are pulled over, subjects wanted for murder stopped while driving. Ya, part of the job, I know. Take take the heat get out of the kitchen.

You may act all cordial and what not but how am I to know you are not setting me up to drop my guard?

So I am going to keep an eye on you during the stop. CC permit holder or not.

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This is exactly the stuff I wanted to know.

If an officer feels that someone needs to be disarmed during a traffic stop, how it is done? When and how will the weapon be returned?

Just as you have seen and had to deal with bad people, I've known some really bad officers who are just thugs with a badge. Some of these people flat out lie about things or try to push someone to react.

Was I correct in why the officer asked me out of the vehicle? What was the reason to ask me out just to sign a form? Was it to get me on camera? And if so, where does that photo go?

Iguess the smart thing is to see about not getting pulled over in the first place!

I have a law firm on retainer but that is for contracts and stuff. I'll see about getting one that specializes in OC and CC.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

There is a very good book on this topic which I highly recommend. It's "You & The Police!" by Boston T. Party. Get it from Amazon.com. Full of information, it is a must for those who carry either open or concealed.

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Mine just came in the mail on Saturday.

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While Virginia does not require you to tell an officer that you are armed, I do this anyway because I just do not like surprises which could arise from a bad situation - such as those described above by LEO229. I prefer both the officer and myself be as comfortable as the situation allows rather than tense and edgy. Putting both him and myself at some measure of ease goes a long way in defusing potential dangers.

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Chris Rock has some good tips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-jgxBmr5E

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CharlesC wrote:

This is exactly the stuff I wanted to know.

If an officer feels that someone needs to be disarmed during a traffic stop, how it is done? When and how will the weapon be returned?

Just as you have seen and had to deal with bad people, I've known some really bad officers who are just thugs with a badge. Some of these people flat out lie about things or try to push someone to react.

Was I correct in why the officer asked me out of the vehicle? What was the reason to ask me out just to sign a form? Was it to get me on camera? And if so, where does that photo go?

Iguess the smart thing is to see about not getting pulled over in the first place!

I have a law firm on retainer but that is for contracts and stuff. I'll see about getting one that specializes in OC and CC.

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I have only had to disarmed one guy. It was a road rage incident and the gun was in the small of his back. I had him lean forward I I removed it easy enough.

There is no fast and hard rule on how it is done. Normally, it is done in a manner where the driver does not touch it. This will reduce the risk of it being deployed against the officer during the "hand off".

The safest way to do it? Driver tells officer if there is any trick to removing it from the holster. Officer touches gun and removed it. If the officer cannot get to it the driver steps out with hands up and away and turns to allow officer to get it.

In my experience it has been rare for a motorist to actually be disarmed. We stop CC permit holders all the time for traffic violations. Open carry is even more rare than CC permit holders so the odds of an OCer being stopped is even less.

How is it returned? Normally unloaded. Given back to the person or placed in the trunk or back seat. The driver can load it after the cop departs. The logic behind this is that it reduces any perceived threat to the officer. Nothing like a gun owner that does not practice muzzle discipline and unintentionally points a loaded gun in the direction of the officer.:uhoh:

I have NO CLUE why you were asked out of the vehicle. If it far safer for you to stay in your vehicle. And if you are armed I do not want you outside the vehicle where you can easily deploy your gun against me. If you are in the driver's seat you cannot run and dodge my gun fire if I need to shoot at you.

Drive responsibly and hopefully you will not be stopped in the first place. Save the fines and court costs and buy ammo and gun accessories!!

In closing... be polite and maybe you will get a warning. If you want to have a trial on the street regarding the alleged violation you are certainly going to get a real invitation to attend court.

In my professional opinion... tell the officer you are armed. Your honesty will be appreciated by most good cops. Play the odds. What is the worst that can happen? You get a ticket??!! :lol:

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W.E.G. wrote:

Chris Rock has some good tips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-jgxBmr5E

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Great Video

But does letting an officer know I'm armed strip me of my 5th Amendment Rights?

My rights are great but I'd rather not be shot for traffic stop.

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CharlesC wrote:

W.E.G. wrote:

Chris Rock has some good tips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-jgxBmr5E

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Great Video

But does letting an officer know I'm armed strip me of my 5th Amendment Rights?

My rights are great but I'd rather not be shot for traffic stop.

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IMHO Telling the officer you are armed only answers one question "Are you armed" any other question is still under the fifth if you don't want to answer them.

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CharlesC wrote:

W.E.G. wrote:

Chris Rock has some good tips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-jgxBmr5E

Click to expand...

Great Video

But does letting an officer know I'm armed strip me of my 5th Amendment Rights?

My rights are great but I'd rather not be shot for traffic stop.

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The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives individuals the right to refuse to answer any questions or make any statements, when to do so would help establish that the person committed a crime or is connected to any criminal activity. This right is also known as the Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination, which is invoked when someone is said to "plead the Fifth".

Are you committing a crime when you CC or OC when you are doing so legally?

I do not think so.

Pleading the 5th is in regards to answering "questions" about your involvement in some crime.

In this instance YOU are reporting that you are armed. So it is completely optional and hopefully not a crime.

Obviously, if you are concealing a gun and do not have a valid CC permit you may want to keep your mouth shut. :lol:

If you are asked if you are illegally concealing a gun and do not have a valid CC permit... you may then want to plead the 5th. :lol:

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Great Video

But does letting an officer know I'm armed strip me of my 5th Amendment Rights?

My rights are great but I'd rather not be shot for traffic stop.

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There's nothing wrong with wanting to set a police officer's mind at ease.

However, you don't have to answer the question or any other except your name and address depending on what county you are in.

I think refusing to answer the question will be seen as antagonistic.

But suppose you admit you are armed. And someone close by with which you have a jaded history is murdered that very night by a firearm of the same caliber. Or maybe it's someone you never met, but the shooter looks like you. You've now placed yourself within the vicinity with a confirmed loaded firearm.

If the police bring you in front of a lineup, and an eyewitness fingers you, what do you do then?

I don't think a cop really needs to ask if you are armed. They should just assume it. So it's not for their safety that they ask. It's so that they can get confirmation from your mouth should it ever be necessary later on in a court of law to bring that evidence against you.

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mpolo79 wrote:

Great Video

But does letting an officer know I'm armed strip me of my 5th Amendment Rights?

My rights are great but I'd rather not be shot for traffic stop.

Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with wanting to set a police officer's mind at ease.

However, you don't have to answer the question or any other except your name and address depending on what county you are in.

I think refusing to answer the question will be seen as antagonistic.

But suppose you admit you are armed. And someone close by with which you have a jaded history is murdered that very night by a firearm of the same caliber. Or maybe it's someone you never met, but the shooter looks like you. You've now placed yourself within the vicinity with a confirmed loaded firearm.

If the police bring you in front of a lineup, and an eyewitness fingers you, what do you do then?

I don't think a cop really needs to ask if you are armed. They should just assume it. So it's not for their safety that they ask. It's so that they can get confirmation from your mouth should it ever be necessary later on in a court of law to bring that evidence against you.

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True, you need not say anything at all. All you are required to do is provide your operators license and registration.

Interesting theory about being linked to a crime because you also have a gun that is the same caliber. However it is highly unlikely!!

Suspects are not selected so easily based on circumstantial events. There is a bit more that goes into it before you would ever make it into a line up. They might take down your name and pass it along to the detectives who will filter out those who are not suspects. So your name could make it to him with or without a gun.

And I do not know of ANY cops that ask if you are armed during a stop unless they see you have a CC permit prior to pulling you over. And then it is rare to even mention it. But if they do ask it could be that they:

• Find you to be a possible threat (You look like a punk) :lol:
• Are new to the job and scared (Little exposure to draw valid conclusions)
• Want to tell you to "keep it holstered" (Nothing wrong with this)
• Curious about what you carry (Personal gun lover curiosity)

But you are correct. Every cop should and most do believe you are armed anyway.

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Here's a question...I do not have a VA CHP, but do open carry. The vehicle I drive is registered to a person who does have a CHP.

How might a LEO go about that? My name on my DL would obviously not match the registration.

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nova wrote:

Here's a question...I do not have a VA CHP, but do open carry. The vehicle I drive is registered to a person who does have a CHP.

How might a LEO go about that? My name on my DL would obviously not match the registration.

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If I want to know if the "owner" is driving the car I will often ask "Is this your car?"

I do this often when I run a tag and find the owner is suspended. There is no guarantee the owner is the driver. So I look and physical characteristics.

• Age
• Gender
• Hair Color
• Height
• Weight

Age and Gender are normally a dead give away. Son or wife driving the car of a CC permit holder.

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LEO 229 wrote:

nova wrote:

Here's a question...I do not have a VA CHP, but do open carry. The vehicle I drive is registered to a person who does have a CHP.

How might a LEO go about that? My name on my DL would obviously not match the registration.

Click to expand...

If I want to know if the "owner" is driving the car I will often ask "Is this your car?"

I do this often when I run a tag and find the owner is suspended. There is no guarantee the owner is the driver. So I look and physical characteristics.

• Age
• Gender
• Hair Color
• Height
• Weight

Age and Gender are normally a dead give away. Son or wife driving the car of a CC permit holder.

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That's what I kinda thought. Thanks for the quick reply 229. Much appreciated!

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Why risk saying anything that can and will be used against me? Just because I want to get away with a traffic violation? That's OK, I'll defend myself over a traffic ticket in court instead of a worse crime that I didn't commit. No matter how unlikely it is, it only takes one incident to ruin your life.

If an LEO stops me because they think I might be the guy they're looking for, divulging any information to them could make them realize that they don't have the right guy. Or it could make them think they've got the right guy, even though I'm not the right guy.

I would need to know everything that they know before I could even guess as to whether my statements could be construed as incriminating. And they're not going to share everything they know with me. They could lead me to believe that it was just a traffic violation when in reality they think I'm the crazed lunatic that just brandished a handgun at another motorist, or worse.

Maybe it just takes having a zealous LEO try to pin a crime on you that you didn't commit to realize how dangerous it is even for innocent people to talk to them; how they can misquote you and take your own words out of context to suit their purpose.

Having experienced that first-hand, if I witness a crime I'll be glad to help, but not without immunity. Well, I would consider it on a case-by-case basis, especially if time is of the essence. If I saw the suspect running away, I'd tell an LEO "He just ran that way!" and provide a description.

I have friends and family that are LEOs. I'm not anti-LEO. I understand that willfully divulging that information to an LEO makes their job easier and slightly less stressful, but the 4th and 5th amendments, among others, make my law-abiding life a lot easier and less stressful, too.

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LEO 229 wrote:

SNIP We always appreciate if you tell us you are armed. In Virginia it is optional...

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Its a little more than optional, fellas.

Its more than just the fact that there is no law requiring you to declare that you are armed.

Its constitutionally protected by the 4th Amendment.

No court opinion of which I am aware has yet authorized a police officer to just up and automatically search you or your vehicle at the outset of a traffic stop just to find out whether you are armed when there was no reason to suspect the same.

Of course the government agents appreciate when we waive or ignore the rights put in place to restrict them. Of course they do.

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LEO 229 wrote:

SNIP The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives individuals the right to refuse to answer any questions or make any statements, when to do so would help establish that the person committed a crime or is connected to any criminal activity. This right is also known as the Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination, which is invoked when someone is said to "plead the Fifth".

Are you committing a crime when you CC or OC when you are doing so legally?

I do not think so.

Pleading the 5th is in regards to answering "questions" about your involvement in some crime.

In this instance YOU are reporting that you are armed. So it is completely optional and hopefully not a crime.

Obviously, if you are concealing a gun and do not have a valid CC permit you may want to keep your mouth shut. :lol:

If you are asked if you are illegally concealing a gun and do not have a valid CC permit... you may then want to plead the 5th. :lol:

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The above is aslanted, and perhaps prejudiced,view of the 5th Amendment, fellas.

The 4th and 5th Amendment were written specifically to protect innocent people. People who are doing nothing. People with nothing to hide.

For a good explanation of this, view the video linked below. I attest that in the video you will hear a law professor tell you to not talk to police, with 8 reasons given and explained. He will quote a US Supreme Court justice supporting not talking to police. And a police detective will step to the podium after the professor and say, (paraphrase) "Everything he said is true. It was right. And correct."

Video: http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/



Also,

Too many, even those who should be better advised, view this privilege as a shelter for wrongdoers. They too readily assume that those who invoke it are either guilty of crime or commit perjury in claiming the privilege.[suP] [n2][/suP] Such a view does scant honor to the patriots who sponsored the Bill of Rights as a condition to acceptance of the Constitution by the ratifying States.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0350_0422_ZO.html



The privilege against self-incrimination serves as a protection to the innocent, as well as to the guilty, and we have been admonished that it should be given a liberal application. Hoffman v. United States, . . . 341 U.S. 479,



To the contrary, we have emphasized that one of the Fifth Amendment's "basic functions ... is to protect innocent men ... 'who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.'" Grunewald v. United States, 353 U. S. 391, 421 (1957) (quoting Slochower v. Board of Higher Ed. of New York City, 350 U. S. 551, 557-558 (1956)) (emphasis in original). In Grunewald, we recognized that truthful responses of an innocent witness, as well as those of a wrongdoer, may provide the government with incriminating evidence from the speaker's own mouth. 353 U. S., at 421-422. Ohio vs Reiner:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/532/17/case.html