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Thread: Frangible Ammo...

  1. #1
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    I watched a video on youtube that had this ammo that practically exploded on impact.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_McIBT3ZKpw

    And this air freedom round that claimed massive damage.

    Also my buddy carries a HP (hornaday maybe the manufacturer????) with a gel plug in the hp that they claim will prevent the hollow from becoming clogged with thick fibers like from a jacket or sweater that would normally keep it from expanding. They claim the plug disintegrates upon impact with soft targets allowing controlled expansion.

    Does anyone have any experience with some of this techno gibberish ammo and can attest to the results? I means its all dandy to watch controlled tests of ballistics gel exploding but thats a manufacturers video. I was looking at some rather than traditional JHPs.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    I find those bullet really funny, they had them on CSI: Miami a while back making them sound like they were not only frangible to go through clothing but bullet proof armor only for the frangible to expand and shred one of the people on the show. Of course they put the whole "omg cop killer bullet" spin on them.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Brady Bunch tried to ban those.

    The price for them seems to be a bit much...
    45 ACP Air Freedom Rounds
    45 ACP 125Gr. Air Freedom Round (20 Round Box) $51.43

    45 ACP EPR
    45 ACP 185Gr. Enhanced Penetration Round (50 Round Box) $107.67

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    ...I was the first on my dept. to carry Glaser Safety Slugs....possibly the first frangible ammo...and I believed in them for awhile...spread several boxes around...quit using them about 4 years ago...I believe the penetration is more important to stopping the threat than a massive shock that doesn't really damage a lot of tissue....I understand the ball-in-the-hollow-point concept...Powrball is one...it makes sense to me and doesn't compromise bullet mass...actually may improve expansion...we'll see...the experts and those with most experience on the street seem to agree that conventional hollow points win most often...read Camp, Ayoob, Marshall...others...they have all led us away from frangibles....

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    Thank you very much all. I think I will be sticking with conventional hollow points. Appreciate the input.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Air Marshalls are said to have asked for frangibles but did not get them.

    Frangibles will not richocet - they turn to dust on impact with hard surface. In fact they turn to dust on soft tissue - this is what creates the terrible wound channel. They are no good against multi-layer clothing, leather outer garments and such without either a round nose or powerball type tip. IMO - there is no need for HP frangibles.

    Frangibles also have their place in training as they are lead free - being made of compressed copper particles - no lead abatement considerations.

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    "the experts and those with most experience on the street seem to agree that conventional hollow points win most often...read Camp, Ayoob, Marshall...others...they have all led us away from frangibles...."

    I've found the opposite to be true. Most people I've talked to and things I've read say that hollow points don't have reliable expansion due to the hollow top getting clogged and acting like a FMJ. That's why the EFMJ and the Pow'rball were created. I got to go to a ballistics class that the guy tried very hard to keep unbiased (Which I believe is impossible to do, but he did seem to try) and after learning a lot I decided that EFMJ's and Pow'rballs are the way to go because they have extremely consistent expansion.

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    ...when you actually read the works of the men I quoted...you'll find what I posted is true...they all lead us away from frangibles....and to conventional hollow points for the most reliable stoppers...the Powrball is an improved hollow point...not a frangible, and I'm not familiar with the EFMJ you spoke about...what is it? Another hollow point that's effective is the copper bullet that came out recently...I'll trust the research of the men I quoted far more than people talking and gunrag writers...who have to push the advertisers' ideas...studies of actual street shootings tell the truth...with an occasional exxageration, to be sure....

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    I (sometimes) carry/use a convential JHP that becomes frangile:
    http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Off...ts-t40940.html


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    I carry .45 RBCD soft points in my 1911. The tests I have seen were nasty, but my prefered self defense round is either Speer Gold Dot, or Remington Golden Sabre.

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    i carry rcbd in my beretta 1935..since most hollow points will not feed..and i like to give the little dog some bite....powerball are good too..if i could ever find it in .32 acp...efmj's are nice because they feed like a fmj but when they encounter the forces of pressure they flatten out...kinda like squshing a mento mint..lets people in NJ have a decent defense round that is not a hollowpoint.....also 1911"s should feed them no problem without the need for a throat job..so spec..hows the rock treating you?



    my choice off loads....

    9mm: speer gold dot 124gr standard pressure, speer gold dot 124 +p

    winchester ranger-t 124gr +p, win ranger 147gr

    cor-bon 115gr +p

    .32 acp 60gr federal hydroshock, rcbd that goes really fast:celebrate..which like grapeshot siad is not to good against barriers...however after the threat has been hit in the chest with a "sledge hammer" if they are not TKO..then i can retreat or find a fleshier area more suited to end the fight



    and if all else fails...a tactical nuclear warhead...keep it as the trunk gun..hehehe...wonder if NATO will let me in join now.........



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    ok I went with the speer Gold Dot, I figured they Are well known for proper expansion so I'd go with tried and true. If they weren't so expensive I'd try a few tests of my own with as few types of frangible. I'm sure the GD will work fine for defensive rounds.
    I know a guy on YouTube that does these penetration tests maybe I'll run it by him. If anyones interested his channel is Stopping Power Info. Not exactly scientific. They do stuff like cermic tile, interior walls and exterior doors.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    I find most of these debates to be moot.

    8 rounds of just about anything puts down the bad guy most of the time. Shoot until they are horizontal, threat abated. Lead, Frangible, Hollow Point, FMJ, DU... Whatever.
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    I would not use a frangible for outside carry.

    However for home protection they can have a purpose. A conventional hollowpoint shot into an typical interior wall will plug up with drywall and then act like a FMJ and penetrate through retaining lethal velocity.

    If there is a possibility of a missed shot going through to an occupied room. Then a frangible could be a better choice. It would break up on impact with the wall and loose it's lethality before it gets through.

    So, if you live in a house that has occupied rooms that could be in the line of fire, or you live in an apartment with thin walls, then a frangible could be a good choice.

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    ...in an occupied home, part of tactics is to drop or squat low and shoot at a high angle...if you have time...if you train that way, you'll do it without thinking....taking cover at the same time behind furniture or appliances...popping out of a bedroom doorway low will catch him off guard...he's expecting you to be standing....Glaser is not guaranteed to be stopped by sheetrock...I'd stay with conventional...Gold Dot is excellent...Golden Sabre by Rem is, too...

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    sheepdog wrote:
    ...in an occupied home, part of tactics is to drop or squat low and shoot at a high angle...if you have time...if you train that way, you'll do it without thinking....taking cover at the same time behind furniture or appliances...popping out of a bedroom doorway low will catch him off guard...he's expecting you to be standing....Glaser is not guaranteed to be stopped by sheetrock...I'd stay with conventional...Gold Dot is excellent...Golden Sabre by Rem is, too...
    I havent though of crouchin to raise the angle of the shot. However if I was to shoot like that at someone coming into my room (the garage door opens into my bedroom, its one of 5 doors leading into my house) then it would put the bedrooms of the folks above me directly into my line of fire as they live above the garage. Still, pretty good thought, very clever. I could probably fire straight through the garage. The tool chests would likely stop the bullet from going through the doors and hitting the neighbors houses.

    It seems pretty solid all around that frangible isn't the way to go, or hasn't advanced enough yet to be very useful.

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    ...seldom will it all work out perfectly...a lot of us pray that we won't have to and pray that we won't miss if we do have to....

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    ..twice in my life have i had to use firearms in self defense..over a span of 2 years...once at 19..the other at 21.and thank all that is good..i had no shots fired...tghe perps had no misunderstanding as to my intentions should they keep persuing their actions....1st time the one and only weapon i had was in an apartment and it was a ruger10/22 with thunderbolt in it...second time was with my BM and it had rem UMC ball in it...now i am thankful i didnt have to fire a shot...but i wonder what would have happened with the two types of ball ammo...the 10/22 had a 25 rnd mag...oh help me if i shot somebody with all of them...:what:and the .45acp was out in the open with bystanders..so the ball probably would have over penetrated...so lesson is folks...hollows or frangibles..in my personal cases...would have been better then ball..as both times..apartment with thin walls and innicents behind target...would not be the best idea for defense...now when i lived in the country well with no chance in heck of innicents...well i had me an AK-47 with wolf ball ammo...could shoot outta all my walls and not hit a single person or house...i dont count this as a firearm defense...but somebody jimmed my front door open(i know who you are and where you live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and my dog about ripped them a new one and scared them off..as i came out onto the porch with the Ak..all i saw was a shadow moving down my driveway..starting to think that im just having bad luck with the places i move.....so anyways..................good luck with your choices of ammo and STAY SAFE!!!!!!!!!!! a loaded gun with anything is better then nothing.............................



    p.s. and for all you folks..you know who you are....dont be cheap..get off the extra ten bucks for hollow points...yes you only get 20..but they might save your life....

    oh and gold dots have great weight retention..had a ND in the shop i worked at..dug the bullet outta the support beam under the floor...yeah had about 98% left of the bullet..yeah talk about pucker effect...:what:


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    Sheepdog is dead on. If you aren't pointing up into a room above you, then you very well could be pointing into the living room and there could be someone there too. Practice a LARGE variety of tactics, no one tactic is perfect and will fit every scenario. Then learn to use those tactics to your advantage as much as possible. Never stop training because the world never stops changing.

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    bordsnbikes wrote:
    Sheepdog is dead on. If you aren't pointing up into a room above you, then you very well could be pointing into the living room and there could be someone there too. Practice a LARGE variety of tactics, no one tactic is perfect and will fit every scenario. Then learn to use those tactics to your advantage as much as possible. Never stop training because the world never stops changing.
    If there were sigs here that would have just made it into mine. You get some pretty amazing drops of wisdom every now and then and that is definitely one of them.

    I could safely shoot at a BG coming into my bedroom from the garagewith little fear of injuring a neighbor, but if they came through the house...? There are seven people in this building. It scares me to think, would I stop and worry about shot angle or panic and squeeze one off quick? I can guess which. Doesn't make me very happy with myself either. But how does one prepare yourself for such an event. Practice in my own home wouldn't really work here.

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    Train to shoot center mass without fail. Then train to do that under stress. Then train to look (look/know what's on the other side of the wall) beyond your target because no matter how much you train, "stuff" happens.

    That's another reason I like the EFMJ's and Pow'rballs a lot. They expand when they hit a wall, not just something water based. When they expand they slow down more and will do less damage on the other side of that wall. It may not save the person's life, but I'll take every advantage I can get at not hurting an innocent person.

    And thank you for the compliment.

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    Looks like buying ammo wont be much of a problem soon. The bigger retailers like Gander Mt's ammo shelf is pretty much empty and looking to stay that way. Everyone is stocking up and everywhere you call IF they have anything its the super expensive stuff with all the FMJ and round nosed lead bullets being scarfed.

    Old Mother Hubbard....

    Those closets are bare! Rifle ammo is getting pretty scarce here too. Anyone else seeing this?

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    Oh yeah, I've seen it too. I wanted to go shooting the other day so I went to walmart and they had 3 boxes of ammo on the shelf. It was some really odd ball caliber too, I don't remember offhand what it was though. After walmart I went to Joes Sports, they had a few boxes of .45 and some odd ball stuff also. I found stuff at the range, at like 1 1/2 times the normal price. Sodomites...

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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Here's something for discussion. I realize it is off topic for "OCDO" but it does follow this thread "somewhat".

    A lot of this thread talks to use of handguns and their loads in home defense. A hand gun is great for out and about, butwhat do you think about a shotgun with about a #6 buckshot instead of a hand gun inside the home? It has great stopping power if you hit something at close range, and if you miss there would not bea lot of penetration through drywall. It is not as maneuverable but carries a lot more emotional impact when the BG knows what you have pointed at him.

    Once again, this is for discussion.

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    oklaccer wrote:
    Here's something for discussion. I realize it is off topic for "OCDO" but it does follow this thread "somewhat".

    A lot of this thread talks to use of handguns and their loads in home defense. A hand gun is great for out and about, butwhat do you think about a shotgun with about a #6 buckshot instead of a hand gun inside the home? It has great stopping power if you hit something at close range, and if you miss there would not bea lot of penetration through drywall. It is not as maneuverable but carries a lot more emotional impact when the BG knows what you have pointed at him.

    Once again, this is for discussion.
    A little off topic but not so much that I wont gladly talk about it. From what Ive heard most people talk about #4 but Ive seen tests where it can blow right through interior walls with alot of force left over. Ive never seen any talk of #6.

    When I get a shotgun I would much rather use that for home defense. I keep my pistol handy, but ifthere is some available time, like someone is trying to get into my house as opposed to already in it, I will go for the shotgun. In a home defense situation its likely going to be close in. A nice folding stock would be nice for keeping it close in.

    Also shot doesnt really spread out all the much until its out passed about 15 feet I believe... hmm cant remember for sure. But your not going to see much spread inside your home so the whole "you cant miss with a shotgun" is BS. I can say one shot with a 12g is going to have a criminal rethinking his actions alot faster than a handgun, regardless of caliber.

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    YllwFvr wrote:
    oklaccer wrote:
    Here's something for discussion. I realize it is off topic for "OCDO" but it does follow this thread "somewhat".

    A lot of this thread talks to use of handguns and their loads in home defense. A hand gun is great for out and about, butwhat do you think about a shotgun with about a #6 buckshot instead of a hand gun inside the home? It has great stopping power if you hit something at close range, and if you miss there would not bea lot of penetration through drywall. It is not as maneuverable but carries a lot more emotional impact when the BG knows what you have pointed at him.

    Once again, this is for discussion.
    A little off topic but not so much that I wont gladly talk about it. From what Ive heard most people talk about #4 but Ive seen tests where it can blow right through interior walls with alot of force left over. Ive never seen any talk of #6.

    When I get a shotgun I would much rather use that for home defense. I keep my pistol handy, but ifthere is some available time, like someone is trying to get into my house as opposed to already in it, I will go for the shotgun. In a home defense situation its likely going to be close in. A nice folding stock would be nice for keeping it close in.

    Also shot doesnt really spread out all the much until its out passed about 15 feet I believe... hmm cant remember for sure. But your not going to see much spread inside your home so the whole "you cant miss with a shotgun" is BS. I can say one shot with a 12g is going to have a criminal rethinking his actions alot faster than a handgun, regardless of caliber.
    I missed another parameter from earlier, that being using a 20ga. In close quarters it is still very effective, but not as much penetration of drywall if you miss. I used to hunt birds insidea metal storage buildingwith a 20ga, and unless you were up real close, the buckshot wouldn't have enough left after pentratingthe insulation to penetrate the metal. Shots from one side of thebuilding to the other, about 50 ft.,would have about a 2ft spread. The one time I shot at about 20 ft, the pattern was about 6 inches, and there were only a few pentrations of the metal, most of the shot stayed inside.

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