Frangible Ammo...

imported post

Looks like buying ammo wont be much of a problem soon. The bigger retailers like Gander Mt's ammo shelf is pretty much empty and looking to stay that way. Everyone is stocking up and everywhere you call IF they have anything its the super expensive stuff with all the FMJ and round nosed lead bullets being scarfed.

Old Mother Hubbard....

Those closets are bare! Rifle ammo is getting pretty scarce here too. Anyone else seeing this?

imported post

Oh yeah, I've seen it too. I wanted to go shooting the other day so I went to walmart and they had 3 boxes of ammo on the shelf. It was some really odd ball caliber too, I don't remember offhand what it was though. After walmart I went to Joes Sports, they had a few boxes of .45 and some odd ball stuff also. I found stuff at the range, at like 1 1/2 times the normal price. Sodomites...

imported post

Here's something for discussion. I realize it is off topic for "OCDO" but it does follow this thread "somewhat".

A lot of this thread talks to use of handguns and their loads in home defense. A hand gun is great for out and about, butwhat do you think about a shotgun with about a #6 buckshot instead of a hand gun inside the home? It has great stopping power if you hit something at close range, and if you miss there would not bea lot of penetration through drywall. It is not as maneuverable but carries a lot more emotional impact when the BG knows what you have pointed at him.

Once again, this is for discussion.

imported post

oklaccer wrote:

Here's something for discussion. I realize it is off topic for "OCDO" but it does follow this thread "somewhat".

A lot of this thread talks to use of handguns and their loads in home defense. A hand gun is great for out and about, butwhat do you think about a shotgun with about a #6 buckshot instead of a hand gun inside the home? It has great stopping power if you hit something at close range, and if you miss there would not bea lot of penetration through drywall. It is not as maneuverable but carries a lot more emotional impact when the BG knows what you have pointed at him.

Once again, this is for discussion.

Click to expand...

A little off topic but not so much that I wont gladly talk about it. From what Ive heard most people talk about #4 but Ive seen tests where it can blow right through interior walls with alot of force left over. Ive never seen any talk of #6.

When I get a shotgun I would much rather use that for home defense. I keep my pistol handy, but ifthere is some available time, like someone is trying to get into my house as opposed to already in it, I will go for the shotgun. In a home defense situation its likely going to be close in. A nice folding stock would be nice for keeping it close in.

Also shot doesnt really spread out all the much until its out passed about 15 feet I believe... hmm cant remember for sure. But your not going to see much spread inside your home so the whole "you cant miss with a shotgun" is BS. I can say one shot with a 12g is going to have a criminal rethinking his actions alot faster than a handgun, regardless of caliber.

imported post

YllwFvr wrote:

oklaccer wrote:

Here's something for discussion. I realize it is off topic for "OCDO" but it does follow this thread "somewhat".

A lot of this thread talks to use of handguns and their loads in home defense. A hand gun is great for out and about, butwhat do you think about a shotgun with about a #6 buckshot instead of a hand gun inside the home? It has great stopping power if you hit something at close range, and if you miss there would not bea lot of penetration through drywall. It is not as maneuverable but carries a lot more emotional impact when the BG knows what you have pointed at him.

Once again, this is for discussion.

Click to expand...

A little off topic but not so much that I wont gladly talk about it. From what Ive heard most people talk about #4 but Ive seen tests where it can blow right through interior walls with alot of force left over. Ive never seen any talk of #6.

When I get a shotgun I would much rather use that for home defense. I keep my pistol handy, but ifthere is some available time, like someone is trying to get into my house as opposed to already in it, I will go for the shotgun. In a home defense situation its likely going to be close in. A nice folding stock would be nice for keeping it close in.

Also shot doesnt really spread out all the much until its out passed about 15 feet I believe... hmm cant remember for sure. But your not going to see much spread inside your home so the whole "you cant miss with a shotgun" is BS. I can say one shot with a 12g is going to have a criminal rethinking his actions alot faster than a handgun, regardless of caliber.

Click to expand...

I missed another parameter from earlier, that being using a 20ga. In close quarters it is still very effective, but not as much penetration of drywall if you miss. I used to hunt birds insidea metal storage buildingwith a 20ga, and unless you were up real close, the buckshot wouldn't have enough left after pentratingthe insulation to penetrate the metal. Shots from one side of thebuilding to the other, about 50 ft.,would have about a 2ft spread. The one time I shot at about 20 ft, the pattern was about 6 inches, and there were only a few pentrations of the metal, most of the shot stayed inside.

imported post

There is a confusion about terms here.

Frangible ammo, as it is now understood in the industry, is designed to almost vaporize when it hits steel. You can stand two feet from a steel plate and shoot it with frangible ammo in a .223. I've done it.

DO NOT try this with any other type of ammo, including expanding or hollowpoint ammo. That stuff is not frangible.

Glaser Safety Slugs, Powerball, etc., are not frangible ammo. They are expanding ammo. Again, frangible is designed for shooting steel.

Now, about shooting through walls. Frangible ammo will penetrate many layers of walls. Huh? But it's frangible.

Yahbut. It is designed to turn to dust when it impacts something harder than it is. Sheet rock is not harder. Frangible ammo will sail through it.

Don't believe it? Make up some test walls -- three are necessary.

Everything will go through the first wall. It's what happens when it gets to the second wall that's important. Birdshot will blow through a sheet rock wall, but it will not go through the second wall. Almost all handgun ammo, with the exception of Glaser-type rounds, will penetrate all three walls. FMJ bullets, of course, sail on through.

"Varmint" type bullets in a .223 will not generally penetrate three walls, and probably will not penetrate the second wall.

Yeah, I know what you have read online. Again, I say, build the test walls and try it yourself.

Just don't confuse "frangible" with "expanding." Not the same at all.

Here's a video showing frangible bullets being shot on steel at arm's length ranges. Other brands will do the same thing.

http://drtammo.com/player.aspx?vidfile=stream.dvd.flv

imported post

>>In close quarters it is still very effective, but not as much penetration of drywall if you miss. I used to hunt birds inside a metal storage building with a 20ga, and unless you were up real close, the buckshot wouldn't have enough left after pentrating the insulation to penetrate the metal. <<

You were probably shooting with bird shot, not buck shot. The pellets in buck shot are much larger, carry much more energy, and they will penetrate several walls of sheet rock.

Bird shot, on the other hand, will penetrate one wall at close range, but will have very little energy left at that point.

imported post

oklaccer wrote:

Here's something for discussion. I realize it is off topic for "OCDO" but it does follow this thread "somewhat".

A lot of this thread talks to use of handguns and their loads in home defense. A hand gun is great for out and about, butwhat do you think about a shotgun with about a #6 buckshot instead of a hand gun inside the home? It has great stopping power if you hit something at close range, and if you miss there would not bea lot of penetration through drywall. It is not as maneuverable but carries a lot more emotional impact when the BG knows what you have pointed at him.

Once again, this is for discussion.

Click to expand...

There you are in your house...middle of the night... in bed... just before you doze off ... you hear a noise ..... You reach over quietly and wrap your fingers around the 12 gauge pump leaning beside the bed. You are comforted just by the feel of the smooth wood and steel in your hand. Slowly ... quietly ... you rise from the bed and creep over to the bedroom door. Leading with the muzzle of the shotgun, you peek around the corner ... there it is .... moving at the bottom f the stairs... the silhouette of a man back lit by a night light in the hallway below. You see the silhouette start to move slowly up the first few steps. At that moment the quiet of the darkness is broken by rapid, firm authoritative chambering of a round in your shotgun. The distinctive sound of mettle parts sliding over one another, and the shell popping up and sliding into the chamber, althoughactually no louder than normal,is almost deafening.

There is NOTHING that says HALT like the sound of a 12 gauge pump in a dark rom.

imported post

You know I think I read somewhere that people actually get confused because while we may be familiar with the sound most people aren't. I'll have to find it again very good read. I think it went on to say because the average person is unfamiliar with it the sound itself in not a deterrent.

Good thing I know the sound. It would sure stop me in my tracks.
"sir, I know you can't see me right now, but the blood just drained from my face and I just pissed my pants. Sorry bout your carpet. I'll let myself out."

imported post

In re Glaser Safety Slugs:

I had been loading my Walthers (P38 and PPK/s) with Glasers for carry as Alexandria is a pretty densely populated city and downtown the streets are narrow and of course I live in an apartment.

Long story short, I had just finished cleaning my P38 and reloaded it. However for SOME DAMNED REASON (I plead temporary stupidity) when I released the slide to chamber a live cartridge, the safety was OFF. So there I was with a loaded chamber and a cocked hammer. I carefully pointed the piece at the concrete floor and tried to engage the safety when - butterfingers - the weapon shifted in my grip, one of my fingers touched the trigger guard and BLAM!

The slug penetrated one layer of drywall at a distance of 4 feet. I thought I had been fortunate to use Glasers until I inspected the damage and found that it had also blown through the opposite wall into my neighbor's apartment. Fortunately he was not home, and I spent the rest of the evening waiting for him.

I explained what had happened. Amazingly his first concern was for me, the dumbass who had the ND in the first place. Then we went to inspect the damages.

The entrance on my side was a neat 9mm hole. On the other side a 1 and 1/2 inch wide cconcave exit channel was evident. From there the Glaser blew right through a Casio electronic keyboard and continued 10 feet, punching a hole in the first piece of drywall but finally disintegrating before it went into the next room. Although a pattern of small particles from the disintegrating slug was evident in the far wall, the fact that the "frangible" slug had blown through two layers of drywall, ALL THE WAY LENGTHWISE THROUGH AN ELECTRONIC KEYBOARD and still travelled fast enough to punch through another layer of drywall 10 feet away was incredible. My neighbor and I took a string out and determined that the slug's path was only slightly altered by its passage through the various media during its flight.

Well, I had to re-plaster and repaint everything and of course replace my neighbor's keyboard (which was a second hand thrift shop purchase so he was gla to get a new one and I was glad to give it to him). A 5 gallon bucket of sand now sits at the foot of my desk for clearing/reloading purposes. And yes before you all jump on me at once I WAS AN IDIOT:banghead:IDIOT :banghead:IDIOT:banghead:!!! Don't rub it in. I could have been looking at involuntary manslaughter, I GET IT OKAY??!!?

Thank God no one had been standing in the 14 foot total trajectory of this "safety" slug. I could have been facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter, and that realization is just as acute now as it was last month. 36 years of handling firearms without an incident and a split second of carelessness.......

The only reason I am posting this EXTREMELY EMBARASSING information is that ballistic jelly tests are fine and theory is what it is. But if something useful could POSSIBLY come of my negligence, I wanted to get it out there what the performance of Glasers are in real life, not just theory. From what I experienced here, I would say that a 9mm Glaser Blue would do the job just dandy on a BG in full winter dress. You oughtt see what it did to my neighbor's keyboard.......:banghead:

imported post

YllwFvr wrote:

You know I think I read somewhere that people actually get confused because while we may be familiar with the sound most people aren't. I'll have to find it again very good read. I think it went on to say because the average person is unfamiliar with it the sound itself in not a deterrent.

Good thing I know the sound. It would sure stop me in my tracks.
"sir, I know you can't see me right now, but the blood just drained from my face and I just pissed my pants. Sorry bout your carpet. I'll let myself out."

Click to expand...

If that is the only sound in the room, and it comes out of a dark corner at the top of the stairs by surprise, it will not matter if the person knows specifically what it is or not, they WILL get the idea.

A pump action has a rather mechanical sound that is hard to mistake as the prelude to something good.

imported post

Many years ago, I cleared the entrance way to my second floor apartment from the top of the stairs. Seven good ol' boys were taking the lower door off its hinges when I yelled "Listen up!" and racked my 870 - the people trampled each other to get out of the building and into the waiting arms of LE and best of all - I was behind a closed door!

Never under estimate the power of a well chosen word - a racked 870 speaks a language that most BGs understand - if not you can always add some puntuation!

Yata hey