Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 55

Thread: Michigan Malls owned by CBL Properties

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Montague, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    Here is the letter I plan to send to CBL Properties owners of various malls in Michigan.





    To whom it may concern,
    On a recent visit to your property in Muskegon, MI, The Lakes Mall, I took a minute to read your Code of Conduct. Item number 20 and the civil rights disclaimer at the bottom is very contradicting. Item 20states that the only people allowed to carry weapons on your properties our officers of the law, while on duty. Here in Michigan off duty officers, retired officers, and civilians with a CPL (concealed pistol license) can carry a concealed pistol. Further more there has not been an enforceable law against the open carry of a fire arm since 1990 when the state law makers passed a bill preempting all local ordinances against it. Therefore item 20 does in fact deny us our civil right to bear arms given to us by the 2nd amendment to our Constitution. I ask that you revise this area of your code of conduct in a reasonable amount of time or have your Michigan properties added to a on-line list of places unfriendly to those of us who legally carry a fire arm for the protection of our self, our families, and those around us. Those of us who monitor this list will abide by your code of conduct and take our money elsewhere until it is changed, however it is statistically proven that the criminals of our society will not.
    The stores that rent space in your Michigan properties will also be informed that your code of conduct, as it is posted, jeopardizes their safety and their bottom line. Please reply by e-mail within 2 weeks if you wish to remain off this by allowing your patrons all their civil rights.


    Thank you,




    Please give your thoughts on weather this is a good way to promote OC.

    Here is the list of all properties owned by CBL:

    http://www.cblproperties.com/cbl.nsf/cbl_malls

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    SIGfreed wrote:
    Here is the letter I plan to send to CBL Properties owners of various malls in Michigan.





    To whom it may concern,
    On a recent visit to your property in Muskegon, MI, The Lakes Mall, I took a minute to read your Code of Conduct. Item number 20 and the civil rights disclaimer at the bottom is very contradicting. Item 20states that the only people allowed to carry weapons on your propertiesare officers of the law, while on duty. Here in Michigan off duty officers, retired officers, and civilians with a CPL (concealed pistol license) can carry a concealed pistol. Further more there has not been an enforceable law against the open carry of a fire arm since 1990 when the state law makers passed a bill preempting all local ordinances against it. Therefore item 20 does in fact deny us our civil right to bear arms given to us by the 2nd amendment to our Constitution. I ask that you revise this area of your code of conduct in a reasonable amount of time or have your Michigan properties added to a on-line list of places unfriendly to those of us who legally carry a firearm for the protection of our self, our families, and those around us. Those of us who monitor this list will abide by your code of conduct and take our money elsewhere until it is changed, however it is statistically proven that the criminals of our society will not.
    The stores that rent space in your Michigan properties will also be informed that your code of conduct, as it is posted, jeopardizes their safety and their bottom line. Please reply by e-mail within 2 weeks if you wish to remain off ofthis listby allowing your patrons all oftheir civil rights.


    Thank you,




    Please give your thoughts on weather this is a good way to promote OC.

    Here is the list of all properties owned by CBL:

    http://www.cblproperties.com/cbl.nsf/cbl_malls
    Whenever sending letters, it's generally best to check them for spelling, grammar, and proper word usage. People generally ignore a poorly written letter. I do.

    I fixed a few glaring errors, but don't have time to really word smith it.

    As for general content - It's pretty ok. Direct without being rude or confrontational. Will it do any good? Probably - they'll end up on the 'unfriendly' list.

    Ben

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    I just went and read the code of conduct for myself.. You'll have no luck - at least, that's my opinion.

    Prety much every rule is designed to step on a civil right (Especially the 1st Amendment).

    They know exactly what they're doing.. "This shopping center is private property and no rights shall accrue to the public by virtue of the public’s entry into this mall or on mall property."


    Edited to say: Don't let these words stop you from sending it! I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong!

    Ben

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    PilotPTK wrote:
    I just went and read the code of conduct for myself.. You'll have no luck - at least, that's my opinion.

    Prety much every rule is designed to step on a civil right (Especially the 1st Amendment).

    They know exactly what they're doing.. "This shopping center is private property and no rights shall accrue to the public by virtue of the public’s entry into this mall or on mall property."


    Edited to say: Don't let these words stop you from sending it! I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong!

    Ben
    I completely agree with you, and I also hope you're dead wrong, BUT, I sent a letter to mall management myself. Stuff like this gets put in place because "we" just sit by and let it happen. If we don't voice concerns, and take action by spending our money elsewhere, these unwanted businesses will keep appearing and have no motivation to change.

    Nothing will get done if everybody does nothing.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Holland Area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    I, unfortunately, have to agree with Ben. It would be nice, but I think you'll be lucky if they even respond. Some people, corporations such as this especially, can be very....Liberal. Its one thing for a small business to change a simple policy, but a change like this would most likely have to be processed and confirmed by the CEO as well as many other people. Not only that, they would probably consult with their lawyers about liability and go through a lot of processes that would probably confirm why they made the policy in the first place. Thats a best case scenario. Given the companytime, resources, and money they would have to spend...its just not in their best interest. Considering this is just an "isolated incident" where one person (you) is writing in and proposing that they will lose business, I just don't see anything coming from it. Now I'm not advising that you turn this into a lawsuit...BUT, if your dead serious and want to see results AND can provide legal evidence in a court of law that this violates your second amendment rights...You may see this settled out of court to avoid negative publicity on their part...If you choose that route, be prepared to spend a LOT of money on legal fees.

    I'm totally with you here, but don't get your hopes up. If only it was this easy to reform ignorant policies :P

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    Lucky wrote:
    I, unfortunately, have to agree with Ben. It would be nice, but I think you'll be lucky if they even respond. Some people, corporations such as this especially, can be very....Liberal. Its one thing for a small business to change a simple policy, but a change like this would most likely have to be processed and confirmed by the CEO as well as many other people. Not only that, they would probably consult with their lawyers about liability and go through a lot of processes that would probably confirm why they made the policy in the first place. Thats a best case scenario. Given the companytime, resources, and money they would have to spend...its just not in their best interest. Considering this is just an "isolated incident" where one person (you) is writing in and proposing that they will lose business, I just don't see anything coming from it. Now I'm not advising that you turn this into a lawsuit...BUT, if your dead serious and want to see results AND can provide legal evidence in a court of law that this violates your second amendment rights...You may see this settled out of court to avoid negative publicity on their part...If you choose that route, be prepared to spend a LOT of money on legal fees.

    I'm totally with you here, but don't get your hopes up. If only it was this easy to reform ignorant policies :P
    This is exactly what I was trying to say. It's the "there's no hope, so why try" attitude that let's things like this stick. Now, I know it's very improbable, but if all of the so-called gun-rights advocates out there (you and me) were really committed, and really did send letters, and most of all, spend their money someplace else, it would be a lot easier to get things turned around.

    I'm not trying to be a jerk, but sitting by thinking that your letter won't do any good is exactly why our rights are being infringed as they are today.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    Maybe we should try to get together with one of the larger groups (migunowners.com comes to mind) and setup a 'one a month mailing'. Pre-written forms that can be printed out, signed, and snail-mailed.

    We pick one establishment per month, and we all send the letter on the same day. Several hundred/thousand letters all hitting within a day or two may actually be enough to get a corporation's attention.

    What's everyone think?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,071

    Post imported post

    PilotPTK wrote:
    Maybe we should try to get together with one of the larger groups (migunowners.com comes to mind) and setup a 'one a month mailing'. Pre-written forms that can be printed out, signed, and snail-mailed.

    We pick one establishment per month, and we all send the letter on the same day. Several hundred/thousand letters all hitting within a day or two may actually be enough to get a corporation's attention.

    What's everyone think?
    That makes me smile.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    PilotPTK wrote:
    Maybe we should try to get together with one of the larger groups (migunowners.com comes to mind) and setup a 'one a month mailing'. Pre-written forms that can be printed out, signed, and snail-mailed.

    We pick one establishment per month, and we all send the letter on the same day. Several hundred/thousand letters all hitting within a day or two may actually be enough to get a corporation's attention.

    What's everyone think?
    If that could be organized, I would definitely participate. I think it's worth a shot, but I still don't know how much participation we would see.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    iknow between me, my family, and friends that carry, there should be at least 5 more letters headed out to the mall management.



    the other thing that could be done is rather then everyone send their own letter, write up one letter and everyone sign their name to it. 1 letter with 200 peoples names on it would be better then 200 seperate letters,\.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    viperar15 wrote:
    iknow between me, my family, and friends that carry, there should be at least 5 more letters headed out to the mall management.



    the other thing that could be done is rather then everyone send their own letter, write up one letter and everyone sign their name to it. 1 letter with 200 peoples names on it would be better then 200 seperate letters,.
    I agree. If that was not the case they would not be using a petition to attempt to make OC legal in Texas, Florida, etc.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    The problem here is logistics.. How do we all physically sign one peice of paper before sending it? Although a 'petition' style letter would potentially be more effective, the reality of the situation is that 200 letters are much easier for a distributed group to deliver than 1 letter with 200 signatures.

    Ben

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    if you look at texas, they are using an online petition system.

    you do not need actual physical signatures.
    electronic signatures work well in these cases.

    and the system they used is free for use in stuff like this.
    http://www.petitiononline.com/

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    Actual signatures and real paper has SOOO much more meaning to someone reading it though.

    I can get my computer to spit out random(believeable) names way too easily.

    Ben

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Holland Area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    Strength in numbers. I believe that sending 200+ corrilated letters by snail mail will make quite an impact. Rather than one that could easily be disregarded.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    Here's a quick first draft I typed up. Feedback - PLEASE

    I don't claim to be the world's greatest writer, but it's a start. Pick it apart.

    What's everyone think? A few hundred of these might do some good?



    Please, no one send it yet. I think we should review it, pick it apart, edit it, and then decide on a date to mail them. A STACK of these on someone's desk just might make a difference.

    Ben


    Edited to say: Please note, I talked about CPLs only because I hope it gives CBL a 'warm fuzzy feeling'. Obviously once we get them to forget about the no-guns policy, open carry comes with it. I wanted to use every 'positive' point I could and not just the negative ones (no money).

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Montague, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    I like this letter, it is polite, factual, and well written. If we wanted to send it as a petition with hand written signatures we could pull it off by mailing it to a few key individuals so it could be present at any upcomingOC picnics (now that the weather is turning nice).

    Deryl

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    I think the letter is well written and to the point, but I don't think it quite fits. At least not for me. It's a great letter if you only care about CC in the malls. If I were the management, and your letter made me change my mind, I would revise the policy to prohibit firearms except for those who are licensed, which does OC no good, and still restricts my right to self-defense.

    I'm also not a good letter writer, and I know this isn't exactly cut out to be a mass letter, but here is what I sent to the Fashion Square Mall in Saginaw:

    To Whom It May Concern:

    While reading through the Code of Conduct for Fashion Square Mall in Saginaw, MI, I was very disappointed to see the following restriction:

    [size=In order to help ensure a pleasant shopping environment,][/size][/i]
    [size=we ask all visitors to refrain from the following:][/size][/i]
    [size=][/size][/i]
    [size=20. Carrying or displaying weapons of any kind except those carried by certified law enforcement officer in the performance of their duties][/size][/i][size=.][/size]

    While I whole-heartedly support the right of private property owners to restrict virtually anything they feel necessary, you must also understand my right, as well as the right of millions of other gun owners, to spend money elsewhere. I used to frequent the Fashion Square Mall, as well as the Midland mall, quite often but have not been back since I became aware of this policy. I have also reported these malls to various gun-rights groups as being unfriendly to gun owners and their right to protect themselves and their families.

    Upon further reading, I also noticed that the Code of Conduct states “This ‘Behavioral Code of Conduct’ is not intended to deprive any person of their applicable civil rights or liberties under the law.” It is clear that this “no weapons” policy deprives patrons of their constitutional Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms for the protection of themselves and others. Furthermore, after little thought, it becomes obvious that those who you would not want carrying a firearm in your mall are very unlikely to follow such a policy anyway, leaving the law-abiding citizens vulnerable.

    I, along with many other gun owners, will continue to spend money elsewhere as long as this dangerous policy is in place. If the policy is revised to allow lawful carrying of firearms, I will definitely patronize these malls once again.

    Thank you,


  19. #19
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Waterford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    347

    Post imported post

    I am definately in on this one, will sign or send, whichever is decided... I can't quite decide which I think would be more of an impact, but I am leaningover to theindividual letters. I think, if they receive 200 letters, on or about the same day, that would be very noticable, and 200 signatures, on one letter, although quite the statement, would be easier to "throw away". Getting rid of, or sweeping one letter "under the rug" will be easier, and less noticable, than 200. Just my opinion. Will go along with either one.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    tygereye wrote:
    I am definately in on this one, will sign or send, whichever is decided... I can't quite decide which I think would be more of an impact, but I am leaningover to theindividual letters. I think, if they receive 200 letters, on or about the same day, that would be very noticable, and 200 signatures, on one letter, although quite the statement, would be easier to "throw away". Getting rid of, or sweeping one letter "under the rug" will be easier, and less noticable, than 200. Just my opinion. Will go along with either one.
    Yup. 200 letters make an awfully lumpy rug.

  21. #21
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Waterford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    347

    Post imported post

    That was my thought...

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    Just for the record, in regards to the letter that I wrote - I'm not one of those people who falls in love with my own ideas. That's why I threw it out there - It's a starting point. If we want to make it more OC pointed, I'm fine with that..

    Ben

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    PilotPTK wrote:
    Just for the record, in regards to the letter that I wrote - I'm not one of those people who falls in love with my own ideas. That's why I threw it out there - It's a starting point. If we want to make it more OC pointed, I'm fine with that..

    Ben
    Hopefully you didn't take offense to my comments, it doesn't sound like you did.

    I think any letter we send should be pointed towards lawful carry, not biased towards CC or OC. I won't spend money somewhere that allows one but not the other, even if OC is the method allowed.

    These are just my opinions and I will be a follower and send whatever letter we agree on as a group.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    SQLTables,

    No, No, None at all. I actually wanted to make it as clear as possible that I'm ALL FOR comments and critiques. Keep them coming!

    Ben

    P.S. My thoughts on making it a little CC Centric..
    1) Most people/corporations still are not aware of the legality of OC
    2) I do not see a PC Company putting in its rules ANYTHING about a gun being ALLOWED. (Guns may be possessed as long as they are concealed).
    3) Because of 2, they would more likely simply remove all reference to guns from their rules.
    4) Because of 3, OC becomeso.k. along with CC.

    That was my thought pattern...

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    I somewhat agree... Sorta... Except , IIRC, the policy already states that some guns are allowed...those carried by LE, so it would be easy to add "or a person licensed to carry such weapon"

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •