Michigan Malls owned by CBL Properties

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That was my thought...

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Just for the record, in regards to the letter that I wrote - I'm not one of those people who falls in love with my own ideas. That's why I threw it out there - It's a starting point. If we want to make it more OC pointed, I'm fine with that..

Ben

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PilotPTK wrote:

Just for the record, in regards to the letter that I wrote - I'm not one of those people who falls in love with my own ideas. That's why I threw it out there - It's a starting point. If we want to make it more OC pointed, I'm fine with that..

Ben

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Hopefully you didn't take offense to my comments, it doesn't sound like you did.

I think any letter we send should be pointed towards lawful carry, not biased towards CC or OC. I won't spend money somewhere that allows one but not the other, even if OC is the method allowed.

These are just my opinions and I will be a follower and send whatever letter we agree on as a group.

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SQLTables,

No, No, None at all. I actually wanted to make it as clear as possible that I'm ALL FOR comments and critiques. Keep them coming!

Ben

P.S. My thoughts on making it a little CC Centric..
1) Most people/corporations still are not aware of the legality of OC
2) I do not see a PC Company putting in its rules ANYTHING about a gun being ALLOWED. (Guns may be possessed as long as they are concealed).
3) Because of 2, they would more likely simply remove all reference to guns from their rules.
4) Because of 3, OC becomeso.k. along with CC.

That was my thought pattern...

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I somewhat agree... Sorta... Except , IIRC, the policy already states that some guns are allowed...those carried by LE, so it would be easy to add "or a person licensed to carry such weapon"

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viperar15 wrote:

iknow between me, my family, and friends that carry, there should be at least 5 more letters headed out to the mall management.



the other thing that could be done is rather then everyone send their own letter, write up one letter and everyone sign their name to it. 1 letter with 200 peoples names on it would be better then 200 seperate letters,.

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I think a few thousand letters hitting their mail room on the same day would certainly get their attention.

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Sailorwatson wrote:

viperar15 wrote:

iknow between me, my family, and friends that carry, there should be at least 5 more letters headed out to the mall management.



the other thing that could be done is rather then everyone send their own letter, write up one letter and everyone sign their name to it. 1 letter with 200 peoples names on it would be better then 200 seperate letters,.

Click to expand...

I think a few thousand letters hitting their mail room on the same day would certainly get their attention.

Click to expand...

That would be very effective! :what:

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SQLtables wrote:

I somewhat agree... Sorta... Except , IIRC, the policy already states that some guns are allowed...those carried by LE, so it would be easy to add "or a person licensed to carry such weapon"

Click to expand...

even if they added the line such as "those license to carry a concealed weapon" does not mean you can only conceal carry. they may have meant it that way, but unless they state "conceal carry allowed by those licensed by the state to carry a concealed weapon" the first would include OC.

I'm making this opinion based on the Pistol Free Zones and their wording on CPL holders being able to OC in the PFZ's. Though in reality... it is private property so they do have their rights as i do have my own. Though I would love to see them allow both CC and OC!

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viperar15 wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

I somewhat agree... Sorta... Except , IIRC, the policy already states that some guns are allowed...those carried by LE, so it would be easy to add "or a person licensed to carry such weapon"

Click to expand...

even if they added the line such as "those license to carry a concealed weapon" does not mean you can only conceal carry. they may have meant it that way, but unless they state "conceal carry allowed by those licensed by the state to carry a concealed weapon" the first would include OC.

I'm making this opinion based on the Pistol Free Zones and their wording on CPL holders being able to OC in the PFZ's. Though in reality... it is private property so they do have their rights as i do have my own. Though I would love to see them allow both CC and OC!

Click to expand...

Well, technically you're right, but then that excludes those without CPLs. And even then, as you said, just because you are following their policy, does not mean they won't ask you to leave. I am not going to pay for a CPL to spend money at the mall. They will either allow all lawfully possessed firearms or I will not spend a penny there.

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true. agreed on that!
our non-cpl friends slipped my mind there for a moment. gruff!

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Ok, lets try this version... I have adjusted one of the letters to better reflect the OC side of things... let me know what is thought of this...



CBL & Associates Properties, Inc.

CBL Center, Suite 500

2030 Hamilton Place Boulevard

Chattanooga, TN 37421-6000





Dear CBL & Associates,

Recently, one of our members visited your property in Muskegon, MI – The Lakes Mall. During his visit, he was discouraged and disappointed when he realized that item number 20 of your policies restricts him from carrying a pistol for his own self defense. Michigan law is quite strict in regulating firearms. In order to qualify for a concealed pistol license, a person must complete a safety class, be fingerprinted, be checked by the Michigan State Police and the FBI for any past history, and abide by the Michigan codes in regards to where they may carry. In addition, people with a history of mental illness are prohibited from receiving a license to carry a concealed pistol. It has been proven that people carrying a concealed pistol license are some of the most law abiding citizens you will find. Further more there has not been an enforceable law against the open carry of a fire arm since 1990 when the state law makers passed a bill preempting all local ordinances against it. Therefore item 20 does in fact deny us our civil right to bear arms given to us by the 2nd amendment to our Constitution. Most have taken considerable time and expended significant money in order to carry a defensive weapon to protect themselves and those around them. It is also a proven fact that by their very title, criminals ignore the law and the rules. Your rule prohibiting pistols on your properties will have no effect on a criminal intent on robbing a store or assaulting a person. If criminals obeyed laws and rules, they wouldn’t be criminals. Effectively, your rule is only preventing law abiding gun owners from protecting themselves and the people around them.

While we, as a collective group, understand and respect that property owners (be it a personal or a business property) have the right to decide who is welcome on their property, we also ask that you consider revising this position on defensive firearms. We, the firearm owners of Michigan, are a large group, and we make it a habit of patronizing businesses that support our right to defend ourselves. In fact, we maintain a list of businesses that are unfriendly toward that right, and make it a habit to not patronize them.

Please understand that we respect your rights as a property owner. We, as gun owners, simply choose to spend our money in places that support our right to self defense. At this time, all of your properties will be added to the “Do not patronize” list, which can be viewed at http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_no_gun_signs.asp. Also, each store that rents space on your property will be notified that our members will be shopping elsewhere because of your policy.

If your policy is reviewed and revised, we would be happy to remove your properties from this list. We thank you for your time and hope that you will consider the above.





Kind Regards,

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I like the reference to OC, it also shows we know the laws regarding the carry of a firearm and are committed to follow them.

I released my original letter this afternoon after fixing the spelling and grammar ( thanx Ben).I still wish to participate in adding a few more lumps to their rug, and really like the direction of 200+ letters hitting their mail room on the same day. I noticed Ben's original letter has been downloaded only 7 times, is there a way we can make this thread more visible?


Deryl

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Tygereye, great job! One suggestion, long paragraphs are not read well. Shorter or broken down into more paragraphs might be better. Been a long time since English class, but I think that is how it goes. Thanks, springerdave.

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Thanks... how's this? Unfortunately breaking up that first paragraph isn't the easiest, since it is all talking about one topic... let me know how this one is... one question, should we really publicize the website reguarding the "do not patronize" list? I know there has been some debate as to wether or not that is an appropriate thing to do...

Dear CBL & Associates,

Recently, one of our members visited your property in Muskegon, MI – The Lakes Mall. During his visit, he was discouraged and disappointed when he realized that item number 20 of your policies restricts him from carrying a pistol for his own self defense. Michigan law is quite strict in regulating firearms. In order to qualify for a concealed pistol license, a person must complete a safety class, be fingerprinted, be checked by the Michigan State Police and the FBI for any past history, and abide by the Michigan codes in regards to where they may carry. In addition, people with a history of mental illness are prohibited from receiving a license to carry a concealed pistol. It has been proven that people carrying a concealed pistol license are some of the most law abiding citizens you will find. Further more there has not been an enforceable law against the open carry of a fire arm since 1990 when the state law makers passed a bill preempting all local ordinances against it. Therefore item 20 does in fact deny us our civil right to bear arms given to us by the 2nd amendment to our Constitution.

Most law abiding citizens, with a concealed pistol license, or even those that open carry without that license, have taken considerable time and expended significant money in order to carry a defensive weapon to protect themselves and those around them. It is also a proven fact that by their very title, criminals ignore the law and the rules. Your rule prohibiting pistols on your properties will have no effect on a criminal intent on robbing a store or assaulting a person. If criminals obeyed laws and rules, they wouldn’t be criminals. Effectively, your rule is only preventing law abiding gun owners from protecting themselves and the people around them.

While we, as a collective group, understand and respect that property owners (be it a personal or a business property) have the right to decide who is welcome on their property, we also ask that you consider revising this position on defensive firearms. We, the firearm owners of Michigan, are a large group, and we make it a habit of patronizing businesses that support our right to defend ourselves. In fact, we maintain a list of businesses that are unfriendly toward that right, and make it a habit to not patronize them.

Please understand that we respect your rights as a property owner. We, as gun owners, simply choose to spend our money in places that support our right to self defense. At this time, all of your properties will be added to the “Do not patronize” list, which can be viewed at http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_no_gun_signs.asp. Also, each store that rents space on your property will be notified that our members will be shopping elsewhere because of your policy.

If your policy is reviewed and revised, we would be happy to remove your properties from this list. We thank you for your time and hope that you will consider the above.





Kind Regards,

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Excellent! Tygereye, I have always wondered how I seem to not have a problem proof-reading the work of another, but when it comes time to composing something on my own I get a huge brainfart. Anyway you dun good. About the list, I have mixed thoughts about that as well.springerdave.

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Thanks again springerdave, however, I am not going to take full kudos on the writing of this, I simply downloaded pilotptk's letter, and modified it to better reflect the open carry side, and even then, that part I got off another's letter... I simply put the 2 together... so the "good job" needs to be passed out to those members as well... now we just need to get this thread better noticed, and a bigger following, so ppl can print, sign, and mail!

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Revisied. Revisions are highlighed in yellow.

Once again, PLEASE comment!

Ben

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Are we omitting the open carry part, I didn't see anything on that in your letter, otherwise, looks great...

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I put it into the 3rd paragraph.. didn't I ?



Edited: I just downloaded the PDF on my cell-phone.. and yes, I did put open carry in the letter...

"In Michigan, any person who legally owns a pistol may open carry that pistol, and no local ordinance against that activity has been enforceable since 1990 when Michigan Legislators passed a preemption law"

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I think I need my eyes checked... just re-read agian, and there it was... in the second paragraph...

So, when are we mailing them out?