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Thread: Reloads for personal defense

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    Like a number of us, I like to reload and especially for my self defense ammo. I load a gold dot hollow point for my .357 model 66 and have chronographed them at over 1700 fps. I friend of mine told me that I was carrying an illegal load for self defense and would be prosecuted for using excessive force if I ever had to defend myself against an imminent life threatening circumstance. I disagree with him even though we all know that this load is most deffinitly going to cause the perpetrator to suffer an enormous hole in his body not to mention the hydra shock effect from a round of that type and velocity at point blank, or nearly point blank range, as would most likely be the circumstances in a self defense situation. Oh, I did I mention the fact that I live in Arizona, where we are legal to use what ever means deemed necessaryif thecircumstances are considered to be possibly personally life threatening, or if the safety of another is of like circumstances. Our law says something to the effect ofdeadly force is deemed necessary by force of equal manner of defense based on the individual threat level. I for one would do what ever is possible to avoid having to use my weapon. Like any other normal person I'm not keen on the thought of having to take the life of another and would surely suffer a great deal of emotional distress if I ever had to dispatch the life of another human being. But in the same way of thinkking, I wouldn't waste any time waiting to see if the bad guy is actually going to use his weapon before I respond with deadly force. If he has a weapon I have to assume he is willing to use it, why else would he be pointing it at me or another person. If they are threatening your life with a knife or some instrument that could cause a life threatening injury or in fact death then you may be within your legal right to utilize deadly defensive measures. I read about a man in El Paso, Texas who caught a perpetrator stealing his car. The perp didn't obey the owners command to stop what he was doing and surrender and instead began to drive away in the car. The owner of the car opened fire, killing the perpetrator. He was never charged with anything at all even though he claimed to have never been in fear of his life. Apparently you are legally protected to defend your property and life by lethal means in some states. Please don't consider this posting to be any form of guidline as to the use of lethal force for any reason. It is only what I read and may have included circumstances beyond what the news paper either knew of printed. I just thought it was interesting as to what can become of a perpetrator if he isn't informed of possible reprocussions for his criminal act. Bottom line, if your breaking the law in some serious way you just might get yourself seriously hurt or even killed by those not affraid to defend their selves, others, or their property. It just isn't worth it to break the law!

    Everything in this post is only my personal opinion and should not be considered as fact or law. It is the responsibility of every individual to know the state and federal laws. The last thing us gun lovers want is for our interpretations of such to be considered as fact and then be responsible for an innocent reader to get into trouble for considering my opinion as fact.

    Gun control means making sure you hit your target the first time! Reload for optimum accuracy and effectivness!

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    I would definately check my state and local laws rather than rely on my own opinion or anyone elses. Personally, my opinion isif someone is harming someone else or their propertythe perpdeserves what he/she gets! However, no way would I shoot at a perp driving away with my vehicle - that's just not worth it, even if legal.

    Gary

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    Doublewide, I couldn't agree more with you. I had my car stolen about 4 weeks or so ago right in front of my house and got within 20 feet of the perp with my gun in hand and at no time did I consider using my gun. I only had it in case the perp was armed and threatening me. After all, it is only a car and certainly not worth killing for! The example I was citing was simply that, an example of what happened to a car thief who encountered a person who really loves his auto that much!

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    I am sure you have heard of Massad Ayoob. I have read one article that he wrote saying that reloads should only be used for practice and NEVER for protection. Why give the Prosecuting Attorney the following: "The cartridges were custom designed by the defendant to maim and cause pain and suffering." I can agree with this. It is just my opinion.

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    I agree. Reloads for practice. Only Factory ammo for self defense.

    In the aftermath of a shooting, your gun and ammo will be confiscated and examined by Police, with the anti-gun DA office may decide to persecute you for using "Custom made" ammo to shoot a perp.

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    I would agree with the prior posts, and with Massad Ayoub. Using custom reloads for personal defense gives a criminal prosecutor, or fee chasing civil attorney, a legal opportunity to paint you as pre-disposed to commit violent acts. They might even be able to use it to substantiate a "premeditation" claim.

    Your reloads can be claimed to be personally designed by you to do the maximum damage and inflict the most grevious of wounds on that poor-innocent-until-proven-guilty scumbag who attacked you .

    Using factory hollow points, however, gives you and your lawyer the opportunity to cut that argument off at the knees by saying, "These factory ABC hollow points are the same ones used by (fill in the name of a law enforcement agency)." Its hard for a prosecutor or civil attorney to paint you as a bloodthirsty animal when you use the same ammo as a law enforcement agency.

    Further, using a well known and established round also used by law enforcement helps in the forensic reconstruction of events. Factory ammo has come a long way in the quality control and consistency arena. When trying to determine how far away you were from a perp you have shot, based perhaps on powder residue on the former perp, that task is much easier with well known factory ammo. Tests can be run with ammo that can be demonstrated to be substantially equal, and pretty much legally equivalent, to the ammo you used.

    Can't do that with personal reloads. They have no way of knowing how you loaded that round, whether other rounds in the gun were loaded the same way, whether you have any quality control or consistency from one batch to another or one round to another. That leaves lots of room for malicious prosecution, both on the criminal and civil side.

    People using personal reloads in a defensive encounter might escape a bad result, but why take that chance? Reloads for practice. Factory ammo for defense.

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    agreed with everyone here.

    reloads are used by myself for practice and high power matches, etc.
    factory personal defense rounds used for my carry gun.

    gun is also factory. factory trigger. factory safety's. factory setup. except for maybe a light attachment or something on that order that does not effect the function of the pistol.

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    Re: the above on prosecution: I use factory ammo... .45acp FMJ Ball. Same stuff my S-A Plain Jane (issue type) 1911A1 was designed for. No possible arguments on that 'killer ammo'angle.

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    I was at my local C-store talking to a gun buff friend of mine when a city PD guy drove up and got into thje discussion with us. He asked to take a look at my model 66 S&W .357 and commented how nice it was. He then asked me what I was using for ammo as my carry rounds. I told him they were reloads with a 135 grain Gold Dot. He said, so you reload. He said him self and a couple of buddies on the force used to have a fellow that reloaded for them but has since moved away or got too old or something, either way he stopped doing it for them. He then asked me if I would load for him and I said sure. But I asked him if it was legal for him to use reloads for his weapon he carries on the job and he said so longas he qualifies with the same loads he carries its not a problem. Well I looked it up and found that even federal law enforcement can do that so long as the same criteria regarding qualifying ammo is the same stuff. Some local PDs and state law enforcement agencies don't allow it but apparently its a faily common practice at least here in Tucson. My son is a rookie with a law enforcement entity of which I can't elaborate on as to what entity or what he does mostly because I am not at liberty to know what it is he does, but he said the same thing about the reload thing. One of the regulations regarding this is if you reload for law enforcement you can't charge them for your services beyond the cost of the supplies unless it a gratuity. Again, I'm not an authority on this and any of this information is to be considered only in my opinion. Some one may want to look this up as did with my last question about storage of our weapon while we shop in various grocery stores and such.

    I would rathertake my chanceswith an aggresive DA then have my family say good as I'm being layed to rest 6 feet under.

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    gamestalker wrote:
    I was at my local C-store talking to a gun buff friend of mine when a city PD guy drove up and got into thje discussion with us. He asked to take a look at my model 66 S&W .357 and commented how nice it was. He then asked me what I was using for ammo as my carry rounds. I told him they were reloads with a 135 grain Gold Dot. He said, so you reload. He said him self and a couple of buddies on the force used to have a fellow that reloaded for them but has since moved away or got too old or something, either way he stopped doing it for them. He then asked me if I would load for him and I said sure. But I asked him if it was legal for him to use reloads for his weapon he carries on the job and he said so longas he qualifies with the same loads he carries its not a problem. Well I looked it up and found that even federal law enforcement can do that so long as the same criteria regarding qualifying ammo is the same stuff. Some local PDs and state law enforcement agencies don't allow it but apparently its a faily common practice at least here in Tucson. My son is a rookie with a law enforcement entity of which I can't elaborate on as to what entity or what he does mostly because I am not at liberty to know what it is he does, but he said the same thing about the reload thing. One of the regulations regarding this is if you reload for law enforcement you can't charge them for your services beyond the cost of the supplies unless it a gratuity. Again, I'm not an authority on this and any of this information is to be considered only in my opinion. Some one may want to look this up as did with my last question about storage of our weapon while we shop in various grocery stores and such.

    I would rathertake my chanceswith an aggresive DA then have my family say good as I'm being layed to rest 6 feet under.

    Agreed. I am so sick of these 'experts' talking about how you shouldn't use reloads. Look, Ayoob is from the east coast, New York if I remember right, and sure you're going to have a problem using reloads there---you're in trouble just for using a gun!

    But out west? In Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Idaho, Montana, Colorado? I challenge somebody to prove it---show me one case where a conviction turned on someone using reloads out here in the west. I have a law degree, I've looked and I haven't found one.



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    I load a gold dot hollow point for my .357 model 66 and have chronographed them at over 1700 fps.
    S&W owner's manual:
    K-framed guns aren't rated for P+ ammo.

    [line]

    Asteady diet of full power .357 will reduce the service life of K-frames, I found this out first hand.

    Re: the above on prosecution: I use factory ammo... .45acp FMJ Ball. Same stuff my S-A Plain Jane (issue type) 1911A1 was designed for. No possible arguments on that 'killer ammo'angle.
    I wouldn't count on it, the Military uses Ball ammo and they aren't using them to spread love and cheer.


    the anti-gun DA office may decide to persecute you for using "Custom made" ammo to shoot a perp.
    An anti DA will probably do this no matter what you use.
    Remember Harold Fish.

    The sherrif'soffice in the county Fish was prosecuted wasauthorized to use the same caliber.
    Fish used Low velocity 10mm Black Talons, Winchester voluntarily pulled Black talons yrs ago.



    Factory ammo should be easier to defend should a DA attempt to use such an arguement.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    I shoot the same ammo I carry, reloads. And I have no intentions of stopping. No one knows my ammo better than me, and that's as it should be. Until Michigan passes a law against it, I'm going to keep on doing it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Loneviking wrote:
    gamestalker wrote:
    Snipped
    Agreed. I am so sick of these 'experts' talking about how you shouldn't use reloads. Look, Ayoob is from the east coast, New York if I remember right, and sure you're going to have a problem using reloads there---you're in trouble just for using a gun!

    But out west? In Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Idaho, Montana, Colorado? I challenge somebody to prove it---show me one case where a conviction turned on someone using reloads out here in the west. I have a law degree, I've looked and I haven't found one.
    I don't mind learning something new. Since I am East of the Mississippi, I go with the "Eastern brain filter!" :P Not really GIGO, just didn't know.

    Bolded reminds me of Robin Williams in Peter Pan!

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    Agreed. I am so sick of these 'experts' talking about how you shouldn't use reloads. Look, Ayoob is from the east coast, New York if I remember right, and sure you're going to have a problem using reloads there---you're in trouble just for using a gun!

    But out west? In Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Idaho, Montana, Colorado? I challenge somebody to prove it---show me one case where a conviction turned on someone using reloads out here in the west. I have a law degree, I've looked and I haven't found one.
    Let's agree that Ayoob has testified as a defense witness in civil or criminal trials more often than anyone on this forum. With all due respect -- I'll take his advice over your advice any day.

    That said, I don't worry so much about facing a jury conviction for a defensive shooting as for paying out enormous sums of money for legal fees. I can't match funds with a hot shot anti gun District Attorney with his unlimited taxpayer funding.

    I'm not aware of any court convictions in the southwest states for using reloads, but I'm willing to bet that more than a few unfortunate people went bankrupt from paying legal fees in an effort to stay out of jail.

    You may shoot whatever you wish. As for me, I'll use factory loads for self defense!

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    I have nothing but respect for your opinion being that it sides with caution v.s. possible excessive legal fee's. But I have and always will carry nothing but the most deadly of reloads for my personal defense round. AsI stated in one of my posts, one of my Son's is in law enforcement, federal, and he too carries and suggests nothing but the most deadly reloadedround for personal defense.

    I'd rather be confident I can stopthe perp with one round rather than having to empty the gun and then face the same legal question of, was I excessive by putting a quantity of rounds into the bad guy? I think it can surely go either way and especially so when you consider the fact that factory ammo just doesn't perform as well as reloaded stuff. I have a quality chronograph and know the facts about factory performance being far less effective and even more so when your possibly having to shoot through something like a car door, windshield, or what ever the specific circumstances may be. My choice of weapon for personal defense is .357 of which the factory stuff is in the 1100 fps range and my personal reloaded ammo is producing just shy of 1800 fps. No question about it, the reload is more effective.

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    IIRC Ayoob's own analysis of cases only found a correlation between handloads and INDICTMENTS, not convictions. The kind of DA/Juror that is going to hang you for using handloads is the same kind that will hang you simply for daring to go armed.

    However, Chris Bryne brings up another consideration http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005...liability.html ,
    he points out that handloads are FAR more likely to experience a dud primer than quality factory loaded ammo.

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    gamestalker wrote:
    I have nothing but respect for your opinion being that it sides with caution v.s. possible excessive legal fee's. But I have and always will carry nothing but the most deadly of reloads for my personal defense round. AsI stated in one of my posts, one of my Son's is in law enforcement, federal, and he too carries and suggests nothing but the most deadly reloadedround for personal defense.

    I'd rather be confident I can stopthe perp with one round rather than having to empty the gun and then face the same legal question of, was I excessive by putting a quantity of rounds into the bad guy? I think it can surely go either way and especially so when you consider the fact that factory ammo just doesn't perform as well as reloaded stuff. I have a quality chronograph and know the facts about factory performance being far less effective and even more so when your possibly having to shoot through something like a car door, windshield, or what ever the specific circumstances may be. My choice of weapon for personal defense is .357 of which the factory stuff is in the 1100 fps range and my personal reloaded ammo is producing just shy of 1800 fps. No question about it, the reload is more effective.
    You will not likely face any additional charges based on the use of reloads over factory ammo so carry what you will. TO date there is not one single case supporting Ayoob's position that reloads are a problem in court. That said I too would recommend people err on the side of caution and use factory ammo for routine self defense carry. East west, north south, it makes no difference, these days as the lawyers come from the same schools and are trained by the same teachers.

    What may escalate your risks however is selecting the most "deadly" ammo instead of the most "effective" or highest "performance" ammo and stating it in those terms on an open Internet forum. While all of this may sound like semantics, it actually shows a premeditated intent on your part to actually kill your opponent instead of stopping the opponent from aggressive actions.

    People do not realize that the postings they make on the Internet WILL come back to haunt them should they ever be tried on any criminal charges.

    Someone earlier in this topic mentioned the use of ball ammo by the military and that they had chosen it because it was effective. In fact the military uses ball ammo because of the proscription against hollow points by the various international laws of warfare. In fact Ball ammo is more likely to produce a wounded person than a dead one. That has the advantage of using up resources to care for the injured person. Because of this most theories of warfare provide that wounding is better than killing outright and a matter of strategy. Tactically it is of course the other way around.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
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    Hey there buddy,

    I have been reloading for almost 30 years and multi thousands of such. A have purchased far less factory ammo than have reloaded and have had more incidents than I can recall of defective factory ammo failing me and not one single, I mean not one single reload fail in in any manner what so ever! 99 % of the time whena load fails to fire it is the result of a primer not being seated deep enough which is more common than thought with respect to factory ammo as I have discovered. This is due to the fact that factory ammo is produced using a highly automated process that requires constant calibration which is why you will have failure in a series of one lot number having problems when they occur. If you've ever had a factory load fail you and then tried to fire it a second time it will nearly always fire,if not always fire, the second time because the primer seated its self the first time not allowing the firing pin to produce a deep enough dent because the primer moved deeper into the pocket rather than adsorbing the impact fully at the point where it will detonate. I use a primer die to seat my primers so that each and every one is seated to an exact and deep enough depth. I also ask that you inspect factory ammo and take notice that not all of the primers are seated at sub level of the head of the case which is exactly what I'm referring to as the cause of either delayed or failed detonation. Please don't take offense to this as I am an accomplished reloader and have done all my home work by which to support my statements and attestations. Now on another note. I have witnessed many re loaders having a problem with mis - fires and in every single instance it was because they didn't seat the primer to its intended depth causing the same problem encountered with factory. The Primer should always be seated to sub level in the pocket as clearly instructed in the most comprehensive of reloading manuals. If your using a process not utilizing the primer seating die you must feel for that primer talking to you as I like to term it. You will feel some resistance as it touches the bottom of the pocket but you need to feel the base of the primer fold over internally which will tell you it is properly seated and then check to be sure it is sub level of the case head around the pocket. It will bevel inside the pocket which it is intended to do when the depth is correct.

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    Hey, I have been using the highest velocity loads possible for my 66-2 S&W since I bought it in the mid 1980 s and it is no less accurate than when I started shooting it. 1700 to 1800 fps and it hasn't harmed a barrel on any of my quality revolvers to date. I think it depends on powders, projectile choice, and most definitely don't use lead. You'll most likely damage your barrel trying to remove lead deposits and expand the barrel just because of how fast it builds up in the bore from one round to the next. It is clearly a lot less expensive to load lead than jacketed stuff but in the long run your destroying the barrel by taking the least expensive route.

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