Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: CPL training certificate question.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    I had read, I believe on the MSP website, that a training certificate for a CPL license was exempt from having the stamp on it that states that it complies with the CPL law on it if it was taken before some date in 2003 I think.

    My training certificate was issued before the requirement that it be stamped was put into law. However, for the life of me, I can't find the website where it stated that mine was exempt. Does anyone know what the website is?

    I want to go turn in my stuff, but I have a feeling that the county clerks won't accept it if it's not stamped. I'd like to have some proof that it is in fact valid as far as the law is concerned.
    Rand Paul 2016

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    Yooper wrote:
    I had read, I believe on the MSP website, that a training certificate for a CPL license was exempt from having the stamp on it that states that it complies with the CPL law on it if it was taken before some date in 2003 I think.

    My training certificate was issued before the requirement that it be stamped was put into law. However, for the life of me, I can't find the website where it stated that mine was exempt. Does anyone know what the website is?

    I want to go turn in my stuff, but I have a feeling that the county clerks won't accept it if it's not stamped. I'd like to have some proof that it is in fact valid as far as the law is concerned.
    Call and ask the county clerk
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    I called them and I have to retake the course.....CRAP!!!!!
    Rand Paul 2016

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Post imported post

    I think their response takes 1st prize for stupidity. If you had actually gotten your cpl with that certificate before the requirement was in place, you could renew your cpl and be "legal". So basically, because of the wording required, it's void. I just don't see the logic here. Is the class itself any different?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , California, USA
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    I just completed CPL class about a week ago. Somebody asked the instructor how long the certificate was valid for...He had recently been told that as long as it was within the last 12 months...it was good.

    So...I think it may have been that your class was more than 12 months ago, not necessarily that it didn't have that text stamped on it.



    - of course, I'm not a lawyer - just my opinion...


    BTW, if your training was that long ago (6 years or longer??), don't you think you should re-train anyway? (Unless of course, you're a LEO or private detective or lawyer - someone who keeps up on the laws (and shoots frequently)
    -- again, just my opinion...



  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    jmartin wrote:
    I just completed CPL class about a week ago. Somebody asked the instructor how long the certificate was valid for...He had recently been told that as long as it was within the last 12 months...it was good.

    So...I think it may have been that your class was more than 12 months ago, not necessarily that it didn't have that text stamped on it.



    - of course, I'm not a lawyer - just my opinion...


    BTW, if your training was that long ago (6 years or longer??), don't you think you should re-train anyway? (Unless of course, you're a LEO or private detective or lawyer - someone who keeps up on the laws (and shoots frequently)
    -- again, just my opinion...

    I can find nothing in the law that states an expiration date on the training course. Short of major law changes it should be good forever. Do you retake your driving test ever year? And the driving laws have changed more than the gun laws. I think your instructor is wrong. But it comes down to what the County will accept.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,071

    Post imported post

    jmartin wrote:
    I just completed CPL class about a week ago. Somebody asked the instructor how long the certificate was valid for...He had recently been told that as long as it was within the last 12 months...it was good.
    I recall being told the same thing. However, many people recall being told they had a duty to conceal as well. I can't find anything in the law about the validity of a certificate expiring at any time, either. I did find the reference to the stamp, though, Yooper:


    (4) A concealed weapons licensing board shall not require that a specific form, color, wording, or other content appear on a certificate of completion, except as provided in subsection (5), and shall accept as valid a certificate of completion issued prior to the effective date of the amendatory act that added this subsection that contains an inaccurate reference or no reference to this section but otherwise complies with this section.
    (5) Beginning October 1, 2004, a concealed weapons licensing board shall require that a certificate of completion contain the statement, “This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372.”.

    This is from Firearms act 372 of 1927, 28.425j.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(fzprnd55o5hcoartss0ot355))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-Act-372-of-1927

    ETA: spacing. Couldn't read it all crammed together.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  8. #8
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    jmartin wrote:
    <snip>BTW, if your training was that long ago (6 years or longer??), don't you think you should re-train anyway? (Unless of course, you're a LEO or private detective or lawyer - someone who keeps up on the laws (and shoots frequently)<snip>
    <snip>I can find nothing in the law that states an expiration date on the training course.<snip>
    +1

    Plus, the law addresses the "re-training" that jmartin thinks is missing. At each renewal, a CPL renewal applicant certifies he/shehas"Completed at least three (3) hours of review of the pistol safety training course and has at least 1 hour offiring range time in the 6 months immediately preceding the renewal application."

    Also, I need to ask what information jmartin has which causes him/her to think thatCPL holders are not, similar to LEO's or private dicks, folks who "keep up on the laws and shoot frequently"? The information I have (near-lack of convictions against CPL holders for unlawful/negligent use of their handguns) indicates overwhelmingly against this seemingly unfounded notion.

    jmartin, care to enlighten me?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , California, USA
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    Don't you normally (at least) take a written exam when you renew your license?

    And is that really the same thing anyway? A 16 year old can drive...they can't get a CPL.

    - And maybe the county clerk's office that told the instructor "1 year" was wrong...I don't think that makes the instructor wrong.

    - And yes, most CPLs probably do keep up on the general laws...but really - who has the time to keep up on EVERY piece of legislation that may affect us?

    -- Didn't know I was going to slammed so hard....I'll go back to lurking (and not posting)
    -- Thanks for the friendly discussions (sarcastically)

  10. #10
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Post imported post

    jmartin wrote:
    -- Didn't know I was going to slammed so hard....I'll go back to lurking (and not posting)
    -- Thanks for the friendly discussions (sarcastically)
    There's nothing wrong or unfriendly about reasonable criticism of people's opinions or remarks. I certainly have received such, and view it very favorably as either an opportunity to strengthen my argument for an opinion or discard weak opinions of mine. Either way, I become better. I certainly don’t understand a negative view of it.


    So with that being said, obviously I'm going to persist in tearing down your "CPL holders don't keep up on the laws and shoot frequently, like LEOs/private dicks/lawyers do" notion, so long as you seem to be wiggling around appearing to defend it or parts of it or sorta morphing it into something else.


    - And yes, most CPLs probably do keep up on the general laws...but really - who has the time to keep up on EVERY piece of legislation that may affect us?
    It sounds like you are abandoning the position that CPL holders don't shoot frequently and keep up on their laws like LEOs/private dicks/lawyers do, and sorta wiggling over to a "Well, CPL holders probably don't know EVERY law affecting them, so I'll continue saying they should re-take formal training for each renewal."

    If so, I’ve got an a**-load of more reasonable criticism for that notion as well.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Post imported post

    I do recall that someone who posted here had taken a CPL class prior to the section that required the “This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372” statement needed to retake the class, as his certificate was no longer valid.

    (The exact statement is listed above)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  12. #12
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    jmartin wrote:
    Don't you normally (at least) take a written exam when you renew your license?

    And is that really the same thing anyway? A 16 year old can drive...they can't get a CPL.

    - And maybe the county clerk's office that told the instructor "1 year" was wrong...I don't think that makes the instructor wrong.

    - And yes, most CPLs probably do keep up on the general laws...but really - who has the time to keep up on EVERY piece of legislation that may affect us?

    -- Didn't know I was going to slammed so hard....I'll go back to lurking (and not posting)
    -- Thanks for the friendly discussions (sarcastically)
    You list California in your screen name area. Was this a Michigan instructor? Laws vary from state to state.

    Driving is a lot more complicated and law intensive than a CPL course. More people are killed with cars than a firearm, so yes I stand by my analogy. You onlytake your driving instruction once, and i renew mine thought the mail and don't take a test.

    If the clerk told the instructor bad information it doesn't relieve the instructor from finding out the Truth or verify it. If you only knew how often CPL instructors are wrong you wouldn't be defending them.

    And for the record if you think this was being slammed I got to ask you is thisyour first forum experience, you seem a little thinned skinned. As I certainly didn't mean to be slamming anyone, only trying to relate accurate information.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  13. #13
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    jmartin wrote:
    <snip>
    <snip>And for the record if you think this was being slammed I got to ask you is thisyour first forum experience, you seem a little thinned skinned.<snip>
    You would think the guy should have a hide like an alligator, being career Navy and having been a recruiter at that.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...377000#p377000

    Oh, well, Benjamin Button indeed is a curious case, since he claims aboveto completing a CPL class recently, yet doesn't trust himself and his fellow CPL holders to keep up with changes to relevantlaw--which, come on, happens not at breathtakingfrequency--orkeep practiced in shooting.

    Maybe he should burn his CPL as soon as he receives it, because he sure as hell isn't inspiring confidence in me about his grasp on reality, particularly with regard to the excellent historical track record of CPL holders in knowing their area of law and not violating it, as well as maintaining their proficiency.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , California, USA
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    So, now you're going to pick on my military service!

    And no, I wasn't a recruiter - I was a Navy Counselor - who needs to check their facts now?

    But really, maybe I am too thin-skinned for this...bye.

  15. #15
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Post imported post

    jmartin wrote:
    So, now you're going to pick on my military service!

    And no, I wasn't a recruiter - I was a Navy Counselor - who needs to check their facts now?

    But really, maybe I am too thin-skinned for this...bye.
    Firstly, thank you for your service. I am a veteran also, so I understand and appreciate your service to our country.

    If you read carefully, I mention your prior service in connection to my thinking that it should have given you a thick hide (the ability to withstand whatever you may face in this forum). That is a compliment to the benefits of military service, not picking on it.

    Generally, Navy Counselors are to greater and lesser degrees involved in recruitment and retentionactivity--both with current and prospective enlistees. At the least, they are considered the most well-rounded and well-seasoned of Navy personnel, and most suitable for mentoring and guiding junior personnel, to include helping them with choices on whether or not to stay in the Navy and, if staying, where to go. That aspect of your job, to whatever degree you participated in it, surely contributed significantly to thickening your hide, to whatever degree of thickness it currently seems to be. That was my point, and is a positive one.

    I would agree that if you feel you are yet too thin-skinned to receive reasonable criticism and either eloquently defend your opinions or discard them as untenable in light of the criticism, you should not post here. We are friends here, but we do not sing Kumbaya with anyone on a point of potential contention.

    If you post here, come correct or expect to be challenged.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  16. #16
    Regular Member 67390FE's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Angier, NC, USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    :shock: What?.. No Kumbaya?...That means I won't be able to take my nap!

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Livingston Co., Michigan, , USA
    Posts
    275

    Post imported post

    Back to the original question...



    I was also told that my certificate was no longer valid when I tried to get my CDL. It was 5 years old & didn't have the stamp that m y county wanted. Bottom line is I got the permit. There is NO expiration for your certificate.

    Have the clerk show you a law, regulation, or whatever that says it does.

    The provision requiring the stamp also gives the exception for older certs.

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Post imported post

    Good to know... thanks for the information!!!

    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Livingston Co., Michigan, , USA
    Posts
    275

    Post imported post

    jmartin wrote:
    I just completed CPL class about a week ago. Somebody asked the instructor how long the certificate was valid for...He had recently been told that as long as it was within the last 12 months...it was good.
    What he was told was wrong and being an instructor, he should have known it.

    So...I think it may have been that your class was more than 12 months ago, not necessarily that it didn't have that text stamped on it.



    - of course, I'm not a lawyer - just my opinion...


    BTW, if your training was that long ago (6 years or longer??), don't you think you should re-train anyway? (Unless of course, you're a LEO or private detective or lawyer - someone who keeps up on the laws (and shoots frequently)
    -- again, just my opinion...

    Actually I didn't think learned that much in the class. My father had already taught me most of what was covered. Add in some theory about how to react to a home invasion that you may or may not agree with and some misinformation and I didn't think I needed another class at all. I did investigate the laws after I had the class & found out a few points that were wrong.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    Leader wrote:
    jmartin wrote:
    I just completed CPL class about a week ago. Somebody asked the instructor how long the certificate was valid for...He had recently been told that as long as it was within the last 12 months...it was good.
    What he was told was wrong and being an instructor, he should have known it.

    So...I think it may have been that your class was more than 12 months ago, not necessarily that it didn't have that text stamped on it.



    - of course, I'm not a lawyer - just my opinion...


    BTW, if your training was that long ago (6 years or longer??), don't you think you should re-train anyway? (Unless of course, you're a LEO or private detective or lawyer - someone who keeps up on the laws (and shoots frequently)
    -- again, just my opinion...

    Actually I didn't think learned that much in the class. My father had already taught me most of what was covered. Add in some theory about how to react to a home invasion that you may or may not agree with and some misinformation and I didn't think I needed another class at all. I did investigate the laws after I had the class & found out a few points that were wrong.
    I didn't learn that much in the class either. It was sort of like preaching to the quire.
    I've learned more doing my own research.

    For example, how many people here know that you can legally carry certain rifles LOADED in your car if you have a CPL? I'm willing to bet most instructors don't teach that. My instructor didn't.

    I have been carrying concealed for about 8 years, and have permits from a few other states, of course none are valid now that I'm a resident again.


    Rand Paul 2016

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Houghton, MI, ,
    Posts
    15

    Post imported post

    Just curious if you could expand on the topic concerning rifles... ?

    Are you referring to short rifles that are considered "pistols" ?

  22. #22
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    Exactly.

    Most AK clones that have a under folding stock are handguns under MI law, even though they are rifles under federal law. There are several others that are rifles under federal law, but handguns under michigan law.

    The gun shows I've been to always have rifles for sale at some table that has a tag saying that a pistol purchase permit is required for purchase.

    Thus, if they are handguns under michigan law, they can legally be carried loaded in your vehicle provided you have a CPL.

    Wouldn't it be fun to have a truck with a gun rack in the rear window, with an AK in that gun rack. I'd bet you would get some weird looks, and probably pulled over by LEO's, but it would be legal.
    Rand Paul 2016

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •