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Thread: OC without CPL on a bicycle legal, Maybe not????

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Does the below law prohibit OC on a bicycle without a CPL. I don't know, but I am looking into it. Motor vehicle code doesn't list a bicycle as a vehicle, but still not sure.

    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982

    © 2007 Legislative Council, State of Michigan

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    "other than a pistol"

    In other words a long gun.

    Pistols are ok.


    Thats how I read it anyway.....IANAL

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    dougwg wrote:
    "other than a pistol"

    In other words a long gun.

    Pistols are ok.


    Thats how I read it anyway.....IANAL

    I talked with My local Chief and he said that "other than a pistol" is there to direct you to the individual law concerning pistols. Which is covered below. So that's covered, what is not so clear is what is a vehicle? My Chief feels that a bicycle may be considered a vehicle. We are both looking further into the definitions of both.

    Hopefully I will get some further clarification and cite something useful.

    Code:
    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Code:
    Sec. 227.
    Code:
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    Code:
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    Code:
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    "other than a pistol"

    In other words a long gun.

    Pistols are ok.


    Thats how I read it anyway.....IANAL

    I talked with My local Chief and he said that "other than a pistol" is there to direct you to the individual law concerning pistols.** Which is covered below.* So that's covered, what is not so clear is what is a vehicle?* My Chief feels that a bicycle may be considered a vehicle.* We are both looking further into the definitions of both.

    Hopefully I will get some further clarification and cite something useful.

    Code:
    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Code:
    Sec. 227.
    Code:
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    Code:
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    Code:
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
    The MCL definitely says "IN" a vehicle. One cannot be in a bicycle. One can store something inside a bicycle's compartments, however.

    I say ask a lawyer. But if it were me, I'd say openly carrying while riding a bicycle is not violating the law, as the gun is not inside the vehicle.

  5. #5
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    "other than a pistol"

    In other words a long gun.

    Pistols are ok.


    Thats how I read it anyway.....IANAL

    I talked with My local Chief and he said that "other than a pistol" is there to direct you to the individual law concerning pistols. Which is covered below. So that's covered, what is not so clear is what is a vehicle? My Chief feels that a bicycle may be considered a vehicle. We are both looking further into the definitions of both.

    Hopefully I will get some further clarification and cite something useful.

    Code:
    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Code:
    Sec. 227.
    Code:
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    Code:
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    Code:
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
    The MCL definitely says "IN" a vehicle. One cannot be in a bicycle. One can store something inside a bicycle's compartments, however.

    I say ask a lawyer. But if it were me, I'd say openly carrying while riding a bicycle is not violating the law, as the gun is not inside the vehicle.
    Ah, but read the Appeals court decision on the motorcycle case in regards to what is considered "in".

    The question is what is a vehicle and is a bicycle considered one.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    A bicycle is not self-propelled, or a motor vehicle.. is it?

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    SQLtables wrote:
    A bicycle is not self-propelled, or a motor vehicle.. is it?
    +1. Also, you asked LEO, Venator? I know you know what that's worth, though.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    SQLtables wrote:
    A bicycle is not self-propelled, or a motor vehicle.. is it?
    You tell me. I don't think it's self propelled, my Chief doesn't either. Generally vehicle is defined within each statute and can have different meanings as pertaining to that statute.

    Look up vehicle inyour dictionary, could the definition define a bicycle? Mine could. Outside something specifically defined by the statute, the court uses the most common definitions of the word found in modern dictionaries.


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    SQLtables wrote:
    A bicycle is not self-propelled, or a motor vehicle.. is it?
    +1. Also, you asked LEO, Venator? I know you know what that's worth, though.
    Oh I know, but it can be a starting point and it's good to hear their take on it. It may spur some ideas you haven't thought about.

    Also my Chief is citing statutes and case law and trying to find out as much information as he can. He isn't just spouting off his opinion, he's also trying to back it up. Which is more than many LEO's will do when asked a legal question. That's why I appreciate and respect my Chief's opinions. He's a good guy. There, I hope my kinds words areworth one speeding warning!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    SQLtables wrote:
    A bicycle is not self-propelled, or a motor vehicle.. is it?
    +1. Also, you asked LEO, Venator? I know you know what that's worth, though.
    Oh I know, but it can be a starting point and it's good to hear their take on it. It may spur some ideas you haven't thought about.

    Also my Chief is citing statutes and case law and trying to find out as much information as he can. He isn't just spouting off his opinion, he's also trying to back it up. Which is more than many LEO's will do when asked a legal question. That's why I appreciate and respect my Chief's opinions. He's a good guy. There, I hope my kinds words areworth one speeding warning!
    I'm sure he didn't get to be Chief by being a hotheaded jerk. Most of them are logical people. As far as the speeding warnings, let me know how that works!
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Venator wrote:
    SQLtables wrote:
    A bicycle is not self-propelled, or a motor vehicle.. is it?
    You tell me.* I don't think it's self propelled, my Chief doesn't either.* Generally vehicle is defined within each statute and can have different meanings as pertaining to that statute.*

    Look up vehicle in*your dictionary, could the definition define a bicycle?* Mine could.* Outside something specifically defined by the statute, the court uses the most common definitions of the word found in modern dictionaries.

    *
    You're right, I didn't pay close enough attention to the wording difference. So it appears that a rifle on a bicycle is OK. Maybe???

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    Reply from my Chief: First off he is not against OC and is in favor of all lawful purpose in regards to self defense. Second these are his opinions and not legal advice. Third he does not state what he would do in any particular situation.

    He wrote:

    "As for vehicles, the point I was trying to make is that the definition in motor vehicle law does not necessarily mean that Michigan Law’s definition would or is the same. In most cases Michigan Law will use common definitions from a dictionary to define a word used in a statute where no other definition is present. In the motor vehicle code, definitions are used for the specific section. I expound ad nauseum about this because it is easy to take one definition and use it inappropriately and find out later that one was in error.


    You posed two questions to me. One was whether self propelled vehicle’s included a bicycle. I believe that it does not. Primarily because a bike is not self propelled, it is propelled by you. The CCW statute does not use self propelled in the statute though. It just says vehicle. If you look up vehicle as defined in the dictionary though, I believe that a bike is considered to be a vehicle."

    I talked with him for a long time today about a variety of things. One of the things that came up was what is a self propelled vehicle. The dictionary defines it as moving under it's own power, so that is not a bike. A vehicle is defined as any thing that can convey people or goods.

    So by these definitions a horse is a self propelled vehicle....see where I'm going. Can you OC on a horse without a CPL???? I guess a wheel barrel is a vehicle. The more I learn about laws the more I hate them and hate those that write them so poorly.

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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    324.40104 Definitions; T, V.

    Sec. 40104. (1) “Take” means to hunt with any weapon, dog, raptor, or other wild or domestic animal trained for that purpose; kill; chase; follow; harass; harm; pursue; shoot; rob; trap; capture; or collect animals, or to attempt to engage in such an activity.

    (2) “Transport” means to carry or ship animals within this state or to points outside this state.

    (3) “Trap” means taking or attempting to take animals by means of a trap or other device designed to kill or capture animals.

    (4) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported, except devices exclusively moved by human power.

    History:
    Add. 1995, Act 57, Imd. Eff. May 24, 1995.

    Popular name:
    Act 451

    I know this Section pertains mostly to hunting from the Natural Resources Chapter of the Michigan Firearm Laws but it does not define a bicycle as a vehicle. This may very well be a definition from a dictionary and not a precedent from case law.

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    This-

    "(4) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported, except devices exclusively moved by human power."

    And this-

    "(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designedfor land travel a firearm, other than a pistol,"



    lead me to believe that it IS legal when I initially signed up on this site and started a thread about this very subject.

    Assuming no one can find a reason not to, I'd like to have an OC bike ride at some point. :celebrate
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    we have the Rail Trail in Midland and goes all the way up to Clare (where Jay's Sporting Goods is). that would be a perfect biketrip in the warmer weather. LOTS of people travel the rail trail :-)

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    Michigander wrote:
    This-

    "(4) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported, except devices exclusively moved by human power."

    And this-

    "(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designedfor land travel a firearm, other than a pistol,"



    lead me to believe that it IS legal when I initially signed up on this site and started a thread about this very subject.

    Assuming no one can find a reason not to, I'd like to have an OC bike ride at some point. :celebrate
    See my above posts on what is meant by "other than a pistol" It may be wrong, but it does make sense. And as my Chief stated you have to be careful on terms defined in a statute and using it in another statute, as it only applies to that statute it appears in. If it's not defined in a statute then the dictionary meaning can be applied.

    I'm not saying OC is or is not allowed on a bicycle I just putting this out there as a cautionary tale. An arrest could be made for it and itcould go to trial. All depends on the PD and their prosecutors.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Add to that the fact that when a bicycle is ridden on the road it is subject to all the same traffic rules and laws as any other vehicle and is afforded the same status by LEO. As I understand it a bike rider can be ticketed for failing to stop at a stop sign, failing to signal a turn, etc.

    Venator correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that regardless ofhow other lawsdefine human-powered conveyences if the specific law regarding carrying a pistol in a vehicle doesn't define it then a dictionary definition is used. And if a dictionary definition is usedone can definitelybe found that says a bicycle is a vehicle.

    So we can cite any laws we want that define a bicycle any number of ways and those definitions have no bearing on how a bicycle would be defined in another law?



    Bronson
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    my buddy got a dui while rideing his bike home from the bar and lost his drivers license for 2 years.i dont know if that will help but it was humerous at the time.

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    ruger45 wrote:
    my buddy got a dui while rideing his bike home from the bar and lost his drivers license for 2 years.i dont know if that will help but it was humerous at the time.
    M.A.D.D

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    Venator wrote:
    I'm not saying OC is or is not allowed on a bicycle I just putting this out there as a cautionary tale. An arrest could be made for it and itcould go to trial. All depends on the PD and their prosecutors.
    Turns out it doesn't really matter, because my brother just told me that me has made a business agreement with a CPL instructor, and he will be giving us each a free CPL class in exchange for some services. As much as I hate the concept of CPL's, it's hard to turn down free.
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    "Free" is very rarely "Free". CPL Is still $105 (If memory serves) + Time + More Time + Having your fingerprints put on file.

    Not saying not to do it. A CPL Makes things MUCH easier for us gun toters. Just saying.. Free is almost never free..

    Ben

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    Yeah I know that much. But the class is free.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    Yeah I know that much. But the class is free.
    I'm just curious here. You're not going to stop questioning things like this and fighting for our actual rights are you? You stated that this topic doesn't matter much anymore to you.

    BTW, congrats on the class.. At least it'll save some money.

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    SQLtables wrote:
    I'm just curious here. You're not going to stop questioning things like this and fighting for our actual rights are you? You stated that this topic doesn't matter much anymore to you.

    BTW, congrats on the class.. At least it'll save some money.
    Not a chance I'll quit being upset by the CPL requirements. As a matter of fact, I don't even plan to carry any ID when I won't need to.

    I think Randy Weaver said it best when he said that "some people would go down to city hall and get walking permits if they were told to."
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    SQLtables wrote:
    I'm just curious here. You're not going to stop questioning things like this and fighting for our actual rights are you? You stated that this topic doesn't matter much anymore to you.

    BTW, congrats on the class.. At least it'll save some money.
    Not a chance I'll quit being upset by the CPL requirements. As a matter of fact, I don't even plan to carry any ID when I won't need to.

    I think Randy Weaver said it best when he said that "some people would go down to city hall and get walking permits if they were told to."
    Not some, most, and that's sad.

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