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Thread: Second LEO Encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    A few of you may recall my first encounter with a LEO at the local BMW dealership.

    Today was significantly different. My only regret was that I could not get to my voice recorder, as I was riding and it was in my backpack. I've yet to get a belt holder for it (next purchase).

    Riding along in the carpool lane on the freeway, a CA Highway Patrol officer looks over. I give him a courteous wave as I do pretty much every rider I see or pass. Most all times I get a nod or another wave. This time was a bit different... He looked at me, nodded, and proceeded to pass. Then, suddenly, looks at me again. Doubletake... Then notices I have a pistol strapped to my leg. He immediately drops back half a car length.

    In my head I start preparing for the dialogue I know is going to be coming.

    As my off ramp was coming up, I merged over one lane to the right. At this moment the CHP turned on his lights. I knew what that meant... I kept my indicator on, and got to the far right lane. He then pulled up beside me, turned on his loudspeaker and yelled "PULL THE F*** OVER RIGHT F***ING NOW!!! NEXT EXIT!"

    Of course, I have to oblige. At the offramp he instructed me to make a right turn, then another into the parking lot of a real estate business. I parked and shut off my bike. He parked behind me as to block me backing out, then walked over to my right side.

    CHP: "Firstly I need to know what department and organization you belong to right now and where you work for."
    Me: "I am not employed by any government law enforcement agency."
    CHP: "Keep your hands on the handlebars. Why are you carrying a firearm?"
    Me: "Under current california state law it is legal for an individual to carry a firearm openly as long as it is unloaded. I have a copy of the state penal codes that apply in my backpack. You are permitted to inspect my firearm to ensure that it is unloaded should you wish to do so."
    CHP: "Your own protection huh?"

    At this moment the CHP unclips my holster and withdraws my pistol.

    CHP: "Hold on."

    I look in my mirror. At this point two CHP patrol cars and another motorcycle unit have pulled up. A third CHP cruiser was driving past us. The initial officer is inspecting the weapon. He then comes back.

    CHP: "You can take your hands off the handlebars now since I have your weapon. Where do you keep your license?"
    Me: "In my wallet, under my seat currently."
    CHP: "Ok can you get those for me."

    I dismount and put my bike on the center stand, open the storage compartment and get my license. I also take off my gloves and helmet, and also get the "Yes, it's legal!" Tri-fold pamphlet and associated CA Penal codes sheet. I hand all three to the initial officer.

    The second motorcycle officer then starts to ask questions.

    CHP2: "You think it's a good idea to be carrying a gun around?"
    Me: "I think it's important that I be capable of protecting myself, should the need arise."
    CHP2: "You sure you wouldn't rather keep it in a case? You're still gonna get people making 911 calls on you like that."
    Me: "I have one in my bike, should I need to lock it up."
    - a moment or two goes by -
    Me: "So, you guys been busy today?"
    CHP2: "Not really, but there's more important things we could be doing."
    Me: "I agree..."
    CHP1: "Do you have your motorcycle license?"
    Me: "I have my permit." I hand it to him.
    CHP1: "Do you ride on this freeway regularly?"
    Me: no response.

    He walks off to his bike. Starts flipping through a book with one of the other officers from the cruiser. He picks out his notepad and starts writing.

    He comes back...
    CHP1: "You now you can't ride on the freeway with this permit right?"
    Me: "As far as I knew it was okay."
    CHP1: "Where's your current registration?"
    Me: "It was in the back compartment but was destroyed. If you check the plate you should find that the registration is up to date."
    CHP1: "Where's the sticker?"
    Me: "I have not received it yet, but that is out of my control once it has been paid, which it has, if you run the plate, you can see that."
    Still writing...
    CHP1: "Here is a citation for your rear wheel's tread being too low, violating the terms of your Class M Permit and not having your current registration sticker which is a correctable violation. Please sign here. Do you have any questions?"
    Me: "The rear tire and sticker are both correctable yes?"
    CHP1: "Yes."
    Me: "And the permit violation, if I go contest this the judge will drop the charge if I do have a full class M license, correct?"
    CHP1: "You'd have to take that up with the judge."
    Me: "Alright thanks."

    CHP2 hand me back my pistol and empty magazine, the open-carry pamphlet and ca penal code sheet.

    CHP2: "It's a good idea to carry those too, yeah? We might end up pulling you over again."
    Me: "It's also important to carry these to protect myself. Should I get pulled over again I will educate anyone as necessary."
    I then put my pistol back in my leg holster.
    CHP2: "You sure you don't wanna lock that up?"
    Me: "It doesn't do me any good locked up. Alright, thanks gentlement, be safe out there."

    They then get back in their cars, back on their bikes and start to roll out.

    So now I got 2 fix-it tickets and a correctable traffic violation.

    My take on the situation is that the officer's initial reaction was an unjustified over-reaction. Especially with the swearing. Wow. Never, ever have I encountered an officer that used such language at the beginning of an interaction. Very unprofessional in any situation in my opinion. Also, calling in so many units for assistance... I'm not sure the protocol, maybe that was an instinctual reaction for an un-known situation. Then the final action... After being shown that there was no misconduct, no illegal action, in an effort to save face, spent the next 20 minutes looking for justification.

    I am in no way dodging the three citations i'll now have to fight in court. One was my own lack of knowledge pertaining to the license. But the other two? Seriously... This guy was looking for stuff to throw and stick in an effort to save face in front of his co-workers.

    I'll be there in court. I also plan to write in a complaint on the part of his lack of professionalism and also reiterate the law to them.

    Again, I apologize I don't have a recording to share
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Interesting... and disturbing.

    So what is the law in CA - what do you have to have on you to OC? Can out of staters OC?

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    You'll be filing a formal complaint for the unprofessional conduct after the court date, yes?

    Too bad your sticker wasn't in place. Since he dropped back, he can always claim the missing stickerwas the reason he pulled you over, not the gun.

    However, I kinda doubt CHP cusses people to pull over just because they are missing a sticker. So, you know what that means about why you were pulled over. I don't know how pursuing this angle in court would work.Maybe easier to just straighten out the tickets.

    I guess breathing those freeway fumes all day has an effect on motorcycle cops' judgement.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    BB62, you can find information about openly carrying here in California at http://www.californiaopencarry.org/

    Citizen, I will be filing a formal complaint after the date. I am going to try to resolve these fix-it issues asap. My riding test for the full class M license is in 2 weeks. After then I'll drop cash on new tires and will definitely have my registration sticker by then.

    The worst part is... Even though nothing wrong was done, I still have to pay to have these charges and infractions "dismissed". Guilty until proven innocent - or until you've written the check.



    BB62 wrote:
    Interesting... and disturbing.

    So what is the law in CA - what do you have to have on you to OC? Can out of staters OC?
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    demnogis wrote:
    SNIP Citizen, I will be filing a formal complaint after the date. I am going to try to resolve these fix-it issues asap. My riding test for the full class M license is in 2 weeks. After then I'll drop cash on new tires and will definitely have my registration sticker by then.

    Thanks. I understand.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    demnogis wrote:
    "PULL THE F*** OVER RIGHT F***ING NOW!!! NEXT EXIT!"
    I think that went well.

    Having spent 20 minutes looking for something to charge you with exceeded a 12031 (e) check and should merit a complaint. I think I would be more upset about that, than the CHP's foul language.

    +1 you were detained without being handcuffed or being held at gunpoint.

    +1 you left with all your property.

    +100 you are the first thatI am awareofin the State to have been detained by the CHP

    -1 you didnt have your recorder active.

    Good encounter over all.
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    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    The tire and the sticker can be fixed. The driving on the freeway with only a permit is a slam dunk for them. Getting your license in two weeks isn't going to change the fact that you were on the bike on the freeway with only a permit.

    Be glad it was just a minor traffic law you were unfamiliar with and not one that pertains to the gun on your hip.

    It is a good rule of thumb to keep the recorder going at all times while carrying. It is at the very least inconvenient to try to dig for it and turn it on when the time comes that you do need it.

    Overall a prettty good encounter. You kept your cool, knew what you were talking about, and ran into an LEO who is receptive enough to not brush aside your information that carrying as you were "Yes, It's Legal!"





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    ConditionThree wrote:
    +100 you are the first thatI am awareofin the State to have been detained by the CHP
    Exactly what I was thinking. This is good news, as now me may get to look forward to yet another state-wide bulletin about boundaries.

    -1 you didnt have your recorder active.
    I would have said -100.

    The recorder should be accessible at ALL times, but keep it somewhere away from your firearm. Since you ride a bike your movements will be highly visible, and it would be a shame if they thought they saw you reaching toward your gun...
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  9. #9
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    My apologize. I only hurt myself there

    I'll definitely keep it handy-er...

    At least I walked away without a serious charge of any sorts - I did not do anything that would constitute a serious charge anyways.

    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    ConditionThree wrote:
    +100 you are the first thatI am awareofin the State to have been detained by the CHP
    Exactly what I was thinking. This is good news, as now me may get to look forward to yet another state-wide bulletin about boundaries.

    -1 you didnt have your recorder active.
    I would have said -100.

    The recorder should be accessible at ALL times, but keep it somewhere away from your firearm. Since you ride a bike your movements will be highly visible, and it would be a shame if they thought they saw you reaching toward your gun...
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    as far as I know,most digital recorders come with their own small carrying pouch that has a belt loop, mine did anyways. For those buying a digital recorder, look at the packaging and see if it comes with its own little carrying pouch....a big bonus there.

    Otherwise a good contact overall with the exception of the traffic violations....and the swearing. At least when I was arrested for OCing, they didnt swear at me, woulda been nice if they did, woulda had it all on recording.

    Have a great day....

  11. #11
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    what is the MC permit violation VC section?

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    giaking70 wrote:
    At least when I was arrested for OCing, they didnt swear at me, woulda been nice if they did, woulda had it all on recording.

    Have a great day....
    What an ignorant statement. Go ahead and set the movement backwards. You claim in your other posts tht you were not seeking confrontation..... with a statement like that...I call BS!

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    Dude..... You got off lucky! DO NOT file a complaint. They could have arrested you just because....., it's happened before. They actually looked at the law, listened to you, gave you your weapon back, and let you go. This isn't even a regular OC incident, YOU WERE OPERATIING A MOTOR VEHICLE WHILE OC'ING. That might be another first (as far as encounters go). We all know it's legal but sometimes LEO's like to make up laws and change current laws by way of MAGIC. They could have put you through a whole lot of crap and you got off, WITH CHP OF ALL AGENCIES!!!!

    I'm a rider as well, you got off with a slap on the wrist with the Permit on the freeway thing. I have witnessed a MANY of riders get their bike towed and have to walk off the freeway for that one.

    Do us all a favor and DO NOT FILE A COMPLAINT. I've gotten cussed out over the loud speaker more times then you could imagine (there is a reason for that just trust me). It's nothing new, maybe new to you but nothing new. Just pay/fix, your tickets and leave it alone, that was a good encounter all the way around. I can guarantee you if that was me they probably would have rammed me off my bike or just shot me whenI pulled over.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    what is the MC permit violation VC section?
    12509 (e) covers that particular infraction.


    12509. (a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (f) of Section 12514, the department, for good cause, may issue an instruction permit to any physically and mentally qualified person who meets one of the following requirements and who applies to the department for an instruction permit:
    (1) Is age 15 years and 6 months or older, and has successfully completed approved courses in automobile driver education and driver training as provided in paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12814.6.
    (2) Is age 15 years and 6 months or older, and has successfully completed an approved course in automobile driver education and is taking driver training as provided in paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12814.6.
    (3) Is age 15 years and 6 months and enrolled and participating in an integrated driver education and training program as provided in subparagraph (B) of paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12814.6.
    (4) Is over the age of 16 years and is applying for a restricted driver's license pursuant to Section 12814.7.
    (5) Is over the age of 17 years and 6 months.

    (b) The applicant shall qualify for, and be issued, an instruction permit within 12 months from the date of the application.

    (c) An instruction permit issued pursuant to subdivision (a) shall entitle the applicant to operate a vehicle, subject to the limitations imposed by this section and any other provisions of law, upon the highways for a period not exceeding 24 months from the date of the application.

    (d) Except as provided in Section 12814.6, a person, while having in his or her immediate possession a valid permit issued pursuant to paragraphs (1) to (3), inclusive, of subdivision (a), may operate a motor vehicle, other than amotorcycle, motorized scooter, or a motorized bicycle, when accompanied by, and under the immediate supervision of, a California licensed driver with a valid license of the appropriate class, 18 years of age or over whose driving privilege is not on probation. Except as provided in subdivision (e), an accompanying licensed driver at all times shall occupy a position within the driver's compartment that would enable the accompanying licensed driver to assist the person in controlling the vehicle as may be necessary to avoid a collision and to provide immediate guidance in the safe operation of the vehicle.

    (e) A person, while having in his or her immediate possession a valid permit issued pursuant to paragraphs (1) to (3), inclusive, of subdivision (a), who is age 15 years and 6 months or older and who has successfully completed approved courses in automobile education and driver training as provided in paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12814.6, and a person, while having in his or her immediate possession a valid permit issued pursuant to subdivision (a), who is age 17 years and 6 months or older, may, in addition to operating a motor vehicle pursuant to subdivision (d), also operate a motorcycle, motorized scooter, or a motorized bicycle, except that the person shall not operate a motorcycle, motorized scooter, or a motorized bicycle during hours of darkness, shall stay off any freeways that have full control of access and no crossings at grade, and shall not carry any passenger except an instructor licensed under Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 11100) of Division 5 of this code or a qualified instructor as defined in Section 41907 of the Education Code.
    (f) A person, while having in his or her immediate possession a valid permit issued pursuant to paragraph (4) of subdivision (a), may only operate a government-owned motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, motorized scooter, or a motorized bicycle, when taking a driver training instruction administered by the California National Guard.
    (g) The department may also issue an instruction permit to a person who has been issued a valid driver's license to authorize the person to obtain driver training instruction and to practice that instruction in order to obtain another class of driver's license or an endorsement.
    (h) The department may further restrict permits issued under subdivision (a) as it may determine to be appropriate to assure the safe operation of a motor vehicle by the permittee.


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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    MrSigmaDot40 wrote:
    Dude..... You got off lucky! DO NOT file a complaint. They could have arrested you just because....., it's happened before....

    ...Do us all a favor and DO NOT FILE A COMPLAINT. I've gotten cussed out over the loud speaker more times then you could imagine (there is a reason for that just trust me). It's nothing new, maybe new to you but nothing new...
    Why would he not want to file a complaint??

    Filing a complaint isn't going to get him off on the charges, nor is it going to make more charges forthcoming.

    It's funny, but the time I called the OSP (Ohio State Patrol) to complain about an officer, the FIRST thing they asked me was if he cussed! :?

    To me, the moral of the story is: if you choose to OC, by God, do everything in your power not to give LE a valid reason to stop you in the first place.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    demnogis wrote:
    BB62, you can find information about openly carrying here in California at...
    Thanks!!

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    demnogis wrote:
    BB62, you can find information about openly carrying here in California at http://www.californiaopencarry.org/
    Question - how does one contact the people/person running the website?

    It seems that the website and at least one of those memos (the LASD)differ in the prohibited distance from K-12 schools.

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    BB62 wrote:
    demnogis wrote:
    BB62, you can find information about openly carrying here in California at http://www.californiaopencarry.org/
    Question - how does one contact the people/person running the website?

    It seems that the website and at least one of those memos (the LASD)differ in the prohibited distance from K-12 schools.
    That is because the LEO who wrote the internal e-mail (not an official training memo IIRC) probably got the "Safe School Zone" (1,500 feet) from PC 626 confused with the "School Zone" as defined in PC 626.9.



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    Just two things:

    First, what was the penal code for the tire? I ride and don't want to give them any more reason to pull me over.

    Second, it's been my experience that once a CHP pulls you over, you are pretty much guaranteed to be leaving the interaction with some sort of citation no matter how legal you are. "Loud exhaust" is a favorite.


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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    stephenruckle wrote:
    Just two things:

    First, what was the penal code for the tire? I ride and don't want to give them any more reason to pull me over.

    Second, it's been my experience that once a CHP pulls you over, you are pretty much guaranteed to be leaving the interaction with some sort of citation no matter how legal you are. "Loud exhaust" is a favorite.


    California's broke, man! They need your money!
    Penal Code covers criminal offenses.

    Vehicle Code covers vehicle safety infractions and moving violations.

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    Yeah, something felt funny when I was typing that. I knew someone would be along shortly to correct me

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    BB62 wrote:
    MrSigmaDot40 wrote:
    Dude..... You got off lucky! DO NOT file a complaint. They could have arrested you just because....., it's happened before....

    ...Do us all a favor and DO NOT FILE A COMPLAINT. I've gotten cussed out over the loud speaker more times then you could imagine (there is a reason for that just trust me). It's nothing new, maybe new to you but nothing new...
    Why would he not want to file a complaint??

    Filing a complaint isn't going to get him off on the charges, nor is it going to make more charges forthcoming.

    It's funny, but the time I called the OSP (Ohio State Patrol) to complain about an officer, the FIRST thing they asked me was if he cussed! :?
    Exactly. We need to keep our public servants in check. The "be thankful it wasn't worse" argument is full of failure. Unprofessional behavior definitely warrants a warning and note in the employee file.

    I demand obedience to their oath to protect the US Constitution. I demand they enforce the laws, so long as this doesn't violate their oath. I demand that they treat every person with dignity and respect, even if it is not deserved.
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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    BB62 wrote:
    demnogis wrote:
    BB62, you can find information about openly carrying here in California at http://www.californiaopencarry.org/
    Question - how does one contact the people/person running the website?

    It seems that the website and at least one of those memos (the LASD)differ in the prohibited distance from K-12 schools.
    I maintain that site. The memos you refer to however are written by the specified agencies. Yes, much of the information is wrong, but much of it is correct. And these documents are far more valuable than complete and total ignorance of the law, which is what most CA LEA and LEO had just a year or two ago before many of the brave souls here started spreading the word.



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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    BB62 wrote:
    demnogis wrote:
    BB62, you can find information about openly carrying here in California at http://www.californiaopencarry.org/
    Question - how does one contact the people/person running the website?

    It seems that the website and at least one of those memos (the LASD)differ in the prohibited distance from K-12 schools.
    I maintain that site. The memos you refer to however are written by the specified agencies. Yes, much of the information is wrong, but much of it is correct. And these documents are far more valuable than complete and total ignorance of the law, which is what most CA LEA and LEO had just a year or two ago before many of the brave souls here started spreading the word.
    (my emphasis above)

    Whoa, big fella! My postwasn't a criticism of you.

    I agree with your statement - howeverIwanted to make you aware of the discrepancy so, if necessary, you could correct your information, or that of the misinformed agency.

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    ConsideringOC wrote:
    giaking70 wrote:
    At least when I was arrested for OCing, they didnt swear at me, woulda been nice if they did, woulda had it all on recording.

    Have a great day....
    What an ignorant statement. Go ahead and set the movement backwards. You claim in your other posts tht you were not seeking confrontation..... with a statement like that...I call BS!
    you know what man, you really need to chill with your negative statements and implying I am a bullshitter and trying to set the movement backward. You know what, at least I got the balls to go out there and open carry while you sit here and scratch your balls "considering OCing" and slamming everyone for doing it.

    When I typed that so called statement, it was in reference to the OP getting cursed at and not being able to record it. That right there alone would validate and warrant a formal complaint against any officer for their conduct unbecoming an officer and their conduct being very un-professional in interacting with the public had he had such a recording device active during that incident. That would be a great recording for their Internal Affairs Division to hear.

    Let me ask you ConsideringOC...would you prefer an officer to come up to you and say" Hey ************, pull your ass over you son of a bitch". Not very nice is it? Or would you prefer.."Excuse me sir, could I inspect your weapon please".

    So in respect, no I am not seeking confrontations with the local police, I am recording it to learn more how to better interact with them on this subject and to learn from any mistakes that either I make, or LEO make. Call it an educational experience for all persons involved. If one of them were to say hurt me, for some godly reason while attempting or already having me detained (e,g, say I trip over the curb or fall down and break my arm) its all on recording of what transpired. This way, when I go to get a copy of such said report, it may or may not have that part in it depending how honest the LEO is.

    It is California law,from my understanding, heaven forbid I can not find it, but when you arrest or detain someone, YOU are ultimately responsible for their well-being. No matter the circumstances, you are responsible for that persons safety. You arrest someone and he/she gets up to try and escape and gets hit by a Mac truck, you are the one who will be explaining that one to the judge. Hope that all made sense.

    Getting back on topic here....

    No one is perfect my friend and you know that. And you also know that every situation is going to be extremely different then the next guys experience. You telling me that my statement was basically ********,well then go out there and open carry so we can read about YOUR experiences instead of bashing others about theirs like you are mine. I'm sorry you don't like me, I don't necessarily like you either I can't change that but do me a favor and show just the little bare amount of some respect here.

    I see you live here in San Diego, if you want, why don't you and I meet up somewhere and we can both OC and lets see what happens so YOU can post something positive on here. I'm off the next two days so I've got time to kill. Maybe we can get Flintlock Tom or PullnShoot to join us if that makes you feel more comfortable. Balls in your court my friend...

    Have a nice day....

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