Virginia College carry for non-students or faculty.

CharlesC · Mar 4, 2009

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What are the rules for concealed (or open) carry at a Virginia college for someone who is a visitor? I know students and faculty are not allowed by the college to carry but how does a visitor to the campus know that they can’t carry?

I guess I’m asking how the school can make a rule that applies to someone who isn’t a student or an employee? Specifically at a state college.And does a college rule, created by an unelected board, have the rule of law?

wylde007 · Mar 4, 2009

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As you have neither signed (nor likely read) any student or faculty contract or agreement, the worst they could do is ask you to leave.

CharlesC · Mar 4, 2009

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So.... if we wanted a pro-gun rally at UVA, we could attent armed until asked to leave?

And what does "asked to leave" really mean? Say someone who was armed was dropped off in the middle of campus, and acampus police"asked the person to leave", would he be able to walk off campus or would they try to force the person to leave by demanding they give the person a ride?

Can the campus police take someone by force who is just trying to leave?

CPerdue · Mar 4, 2009

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Lots of discussion on this topic here'bouts...

Legally you are fine walking on campus, having lunch on a bench, going to the library. A rally may not be so smart.

UVa cops have been known to give people a hard time (there was panic over someone with a toy last year). If you are willing to put up with false arrest for, "disturbing the peace," etc. to make a point then by all means go. You can sue them afterward for a free education.

I've OCed on the VT campus, past cops, since the massacre, and nobody said boo.

Have fun, good luck.

C.

Virginiaplanter · Mar 4, 2009

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I guess we will find out shortly.....

Lawsuit Against GMU

TFred · Mar 4, 2009

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Virginiaplanter wrote:

I guess we will find out shortly.....

Lawsuit Against GMU

Well, IANAL, but in my amateur assessment, the GMU reply was pathetic!

After 9 pages of clearly outlined issues and violations of constitutional rights, the GMU lawyers essentially spent 8 pages saying "nuh-uh!"

Classic.

TFred

essayons · Mar 4, 2009

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Virginiaplanter wrote:

I guess we will find out shortly.....

Lawsuit Against GMU

That's outstanding.

I did not know that you could file suit after simply being notified that your rights would be violated.
EDIT: I see GMU uses this as a defense

Hopefully a favorable decision in this case will be applied to all state schools.

Not to hijack the thread but I noticed repetitive use of

"To the extent a response is required, the University denies the allegation"

They basically say they don't know if most of the facts presented are true or not, but then say they are not true. I've gotten pretty good at reading these things but this bit of legalese is confusing me.

And just curious, what type of gun does he OC with a >20 rd magazine? Fiveseven?

essayons · Mar 4, 2009

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Back to the OP

CharlesC wrote:

What are the rules for concealed (or open) carry at a Virginia college for someone who is a visitor? I know students and faculty are not allowed by the college to carry but how does a visitor to the campus know that they can’t carry?

I guess I’m asking how the school can make a rule that applies to someone who isn’t a student or an employee? Specifically at a state college.And does a college rule, created by an unelected board, have the rule of law?

According to the AG, no

http://www.vaag.com/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-078.pdf

Although may be (hotly debated) exceptions for VCU and GMU, because their weapons restrictions are codified in Virginia Administrative (not Criminal) Code.

nova · Mar 4, 2009

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Virginiaplanter wrote:

I guess we will find out shortly.....

Lawsuit Against GMU

Thanks for the link! First time I heard of it!!!!

Here's to hoping it goes our way!!!!!!!

darthmord · Mar 5, 2009

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I noticed something about the Bill of Complaint...

#34,

[align=left]Va. Code § 1-248 expressly states... “The Constitution and laws of the United States and of the Commonwealth shall be supreme. Any ordinance, resolution, bylaw, rule, regulation, or order of any governing body or any corporation, board, or number of persons shall not be inconsistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the Commonwealth.”

If it well and truly states that (I've not personally confirmed it), then doesn't the 2nd Amendment from the Bill of Rights apply to the Commonwealth of Virginia? IOW, it's effectively incorporated against Virginia by Virginia Code?
[/align]

nova · Mar 5, 2009

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darthmord wrote:

I noticed something about the Bill of Complaint...

#34,

[align=left]Va. Code § 1-248 expressly states... “The Constitution and laws of the United States and of the Commonwealth shall be supreme. Any ordinance, resolution, bylaw, rule, regulation, or order of any governing body or any corporation, board, or number of persons shall not be inconsistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the Commonwealth.”

If it well and truly states that (I've not personally confirmed it), then doesn't the 2nd Amendment from the Bill of Rights apply to the Commonwealth of Virginia? IOW, it's effectively incorporated against Virginia by Virginia Code?
[/align]

Hmmm. I always wondered why this "incorporation" thing is even a problem. The U.S. constitution specifically says that it is the supreme law of the United States. Why would the 2nd amendment not apply to the states as well? The first amendment says "congress shall make no law". ok. yet that one got incorporation even though it only addresses congress. :?

but the VA code you cited is pretty clear to me...

leprechaun117 · Mar 5, 2009

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darthmord wrote:

I noticed something about the Bill of Complaint...

#34,

[align=left]Va. Code § 1-248 expressly states... “The Constitution and laws of the United States and of the Commonwealth shall be supreme. Any ordinance, resolution, bylaw, rule, regulation, or order of any governing body or any corporation, board, or number of persons shall not be inconsistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the Commonwealth.”

If it well and truly states that (I've not personally confirmed it), then doesn't the 2nd Amendment from the Bill of Rights apply to the Commonwealth of Virginia? IOW, it's effectively incorporated against Virginia by Virginia Code?
[/align]

Yes. Public colleges can not make law, only rules. They have no way to enforce their rules on someone who doesn't work for them or attend their institution.

I got held at gun point at UVA. I should have sued, but I was naïve (and broke!) If they try that crap again they'll see me in court.

Just avoid any building with a classroom, and dorms and sporting venues and you'll be legal, see AG OP. NO. 05-078 (as earlier cited)

darthmord · Mar 5, 2009

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The point I was driving at was this:

If I'm interpreting that code cite correctly, does it not mean the 2nd Amendment from the Bill of Rights already applies to Virginia because Virginia Code says it does?

If so, then one would reasonably conclude that some (or more) of the firearms laws in VA are illegal by Va Code despite being VA Code.

I'd greatly appreciate it if some of the legal beagals here (user, Mike, PVC, etc) would weigh in to let me know if I'm right or wrong.

TFred · Mar 5, 2009

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darthmord wrote:

The point I was driving at was this:

If I'm interpreting that code cite correctly, does it not mean the 2nd Amendment from the Bill of Rights already applies to Virginia because Virginia Code says it does?

If so, then one would reasonably conclude that some (or more) of the firearms laws in VA are illegal by Va Code despite being VA Code.

I'd greatly appreciate it if some of the legal beagals here (user, Mike, PVC, etc) would weigh in to let me know if I'm right or wrong.

I see the point you are trying to make, but it's sort of a catch-22 situation. If the Second Amendment has been generally accepted to be unincorporated to the states, then even if Virginia has code that says the Constitution applies to State and Local jurisdictions, it could be taken to mean only to the extent that it is generally accepted to apply.

That is poorly worded, but do you see what I'm trying to say?

TFred

BTW, in attempting to answer, I in no way mean to assert that I am one of the leagle eagles you mentioned! :shock:

darthmord · Mar 5, 2009

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I understand what you are saying. I'm just raising a question because it looks as though the law was written in such a way as to make the US Constitution and its Amendments apply to VA just like VA Code does.

And if so, perhaps it's a way to push further for all rights within the bounds of the already present law on the books.

But thanks for your response.

CPerdue · Mar 5, 2009

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What does it matter? Go read art. 13 of the Va. constitution.

fairfax1 · Mar 5, 2009

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nova wrote:

Virginiaplanter wrote:

I guess we will find out shortly.....

Lawsuit Against GMU

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link! First time I heard of it!!!!

Here's to hoping it goes our way!!!!!!!

Wow, I have never heard about this either. That's awesome. :lol:

If this case actually makes it to a court hearing, I'm up for going to court to watch. We can open carry in spirit at least.

TexasNative · Mar 6, 2009

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As I always say in these debates about the Virginia Administrative Code...

Notice in the Virginia code that it states the category of the offense (felony or misdemeanor) and the class within the category, and what the punishment would be. Is any of that information in the VAC where it prohibits or regulates firearms on college campuses?

No, it's not, at least beyond administrative actions. If I'm not employed or a student there, then those codes have no effect on me.

user · Mar 8, 2009

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nova wrote:

darthmord wrote:

I noticed something about the Bill of Complaint...

#34,

[align=left]Va. Code § 1-248 expressly states... “The Constitution and laws of the United States and of the Commonwealth shall be supreme. Any ordinance, resolution, bylaw, rule, regulation, or order of any governing body or any corporation, board, or number of persons shall not be inconsistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the Commonwealth.”

If it well and truly states that (I've not personally confirmed it), then doesn't the 2nd Amendment from the Bill of Rights apply to the Commonwealth of Virginia? IOW, it's effectively incorporated against Virginia by Virginia Code?
[/align]

Click to expand...

Hmmm. I always wondered why this "incorporation" thing is even a problem. The U.S. constitution specifically says that it is the supreme law of the United States. Why would the 2nd amendment not apply to the states as well? The first amendment says "congress shall make no law". ok. yet that one got incorporation even though it only addresses congress. :?

but the VA code you cited is pretty clear to me...

Actually, it's the other way around. Virginia's constitution has had that provision since before the United States existed. The bill of rights in the federal constitution was copied from Virginia's. Virginia's been around since 1607; the United States was invented in 1789.

The Constitution of Virginia [1971]
Article 1 Bill of Rights.

Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power. — That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

The reason the Second Amendment does not apply to states is that the bill of rights was designed to protect the citizens from the United States, on the assumption that the people of each state could decide for themselves how they want to run their own affairs. The Fourteenth amendment which does apply to states, has been used to shoe-horn some of the provisions of the bill of rights into being applicable to states on the theory that if a state denies a person a right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures, for example, that's a violation of the due process clause of the Fourteenth.

user · Mar 8, 2009

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darthmord wrote:

The point I was driving at was this:

If I'm interpreting that code cite correctly, does it not mean the 2nd Amendment from the Bill of Rights already applies to Virginia because Virginia Code says it does?
...

Negative. The U.S. Constitution applies in its entirety, so the parts that only govern what Congress can do still only govern what Congress can do (or not do).

Virginia College carry for non-students or faculty.

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