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Thread: Cuffed and Caged For Open Carry

  1. #1
    Newbie madrevar's Avatar
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    3-2-09

    12:30pm

    Coon Rapids (Riverdale Crossing)

    For reference, I begin this story carrying a CZ82 9x18mm in an all but unused Czech leather police holster, with thumb-break. I am wearing nothing but shorts/tshirt/sandals with only wallet/gun on me, with keys in left hand and beverage in right.

    My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle and were leaving to pay my phone bill at the adjacent TMobile. After leaving Tmobile, we proceeded across the lot to my truck. I got as far as the rearend of my truck, when a Coon Rapids Police Department marked car flew in and stopped a few parking spots to the left and opposite my side, approximately 15 yards away.

    The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me with his pistol drawn, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"

    After disarming me and handing my pistol to his partner to be secured, he immediately started cuffing me. I ask, "Officer, may I ask why we are cuffing?" To which he replies, "So I can frisk you and put you in the car." At this point I am not sure what is going to happen, but start thinking a "Disorderly Conduct/Distubing The Peace" chargeis in my future. After putting me in his squad, he and his partner and another officer deliberate on what to charge me with and if open carry is legal. After about ten minutes he comes back and starts asking me the rudimentary questions for his report, where I live, phone number, etc. After that he lets me out of the car, uncuffs me and gives me my keys and wallet back, but no gun yet.

    First he gives me the speil about how open carry is not the best idea, sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me.He also told me that when andifI havelaw enforcement respond again I should be fineif I do as I did that day.He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and professional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment. He had me and the girlfriend get in my truck, hands my pistol and mag back to me through my window. I notice my previously-chambered round is missing, so I asked him to get that for me. We shook hands andI asked for his card. Then he went on his way.

    No particular agenda on my part, just looking for comments and contructive criticisms from all. Thanks


  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Where does one begin?! A good digital recorder would have been of obvious benefit.

    Apology, retraining, illegal detainment, color of law, civil suit et al.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    madrevar wrote:
    snip....
    All in all the Officers were polite and porfessional
    Porfessional = poor-fessional? More a Freudian slip than a typo perhaps.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  4. #4
    Newbie madrevar's Avatar
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    I decided to purchase one that evening. Also, there may be something to your analysis of my typo

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    Newbie madrevar's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"
    All in all the Officers were polite and porfessional
    The two quoted statements from your post are in direct conflict with each other.
    Its my understanding that an officer is trained to assert authority with aggression while doing the actual detaining, just to keep the suspect in control. During the "afterglow", he and his partners were respectful and understanding once they figured the law out. Their behavior was inconsistent; not so much my description of it.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Maybe it's my advanced age, but postsare much harder to follow when they don't contain paragraph breaks.

    Please, PLEASE use paragraphs.

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    madrevar wrote:
    3-2-09

    12:30pm

    Coon Rapids (Riverdale Crossing)

    For reference, I begin this story carrying a CZ82 9x18mm in an all but unused Czech leather police holster, with thumb-break. I am wearing nothing but shorts/tshirt/sandals with only wallet/gun on me, with keys in left hand and beverage in right.

    My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle and were leaving to pay my phone bill at the adjacent TMobile. After leaving Tmobile, we proceeded across the lot to my truck. I got as far as the rearend of my truck, when a Coon Rapids Police Department marked car flew in and stopped a few parking spots to the left and opposite my side, approximately 15 yards away. The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!" After disarming me and handing my pistol to his partner to be secured, he immediately started cuffing me. I ask, "Officer, may I ask why we are cuffing?" To which he replies, "So I can frisk you and put you in the car." At this point I am not sure what is going to happen, but start thinking a "Disorderly Conduct/Distubing The Peace" chargeis in my future. After putting me in his squad, he and his partner and another officer deliberate on what to charge me with and if open carry is legal. After about ten minutes he comes back and starts asking me the rudimentary questions for his report, where I live, phone number, etc. After that he lets me out of the car, uncuffs me and gives me my keys and wallet back, but no gun yet. First he gives me the speil about how open carry is not the best idea, sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me.He also told me that when andifI havelaw enforcement respond again I should be fineif I do as I did that day.He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and porfessional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment. He had me and the girlfriend get in my truck, hands my pistol and mag back to me through my window. I notice my previously-chambered round is missing, so I asked him to get that for me. We shook hands andI asked for his card. Then he went on his way.

    No particular agenda on my part, just looking for comments and contructive criticisms from all. Thanks


    Damn rooks. Some flutter kicks and pushups as well as some "other "types of cardio is in order for this young officer. He needs serious retraining. Retrain him properly after his ass drops from all the endless PT.

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    Since OC is legal in MN with a permit, according to the Map Page here on OCDO, it sounds to me like your 4th Amendment rights were abused.

    I am not a lawyer. Exactly how bad the cops misbehavedwill depend on what the police were told in the 911 call, or however they found out about you.

    If they were given some false report, the law mayview their actions as legal.

    Ikinda doubt they were given a false report based on the cop's earlyquestion as to whether you knew what concealed carry meant.

    If your state has an Open Government Law/Sunshine Law/Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), you may be able to geta copy of the 911 calland radio traffic to and from the patrol car.

    In your shoes, once Iexhausted the FOIApossibilities and knew for sure the police were not given a false report, I'd write a real no-nonsense formal complaint. Polite, civil, but leaving no room for any doubt about how I viewed such a ridiculous and inexcuseable violation of basic rights. I'd include recommendations for training, and make it clear I wanted a response as to what the department planned to do about it.

    Calling a lawyer might not be a bad idea to get a fuller picture of all your options.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"
    All in all the Officers were polite and porfessional
    The two quoted statements from your post are in direct conflict with each other.
    Agreed. The SS were often polite as they helped the infirm into the gas chambers.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Just noticed the thread over at TwinCitiesCarry.

  11. #11
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    madrevar wrote:
    I decided to purchase one that evening.
    It usually takes an event to motivatesome of us tobuy one. Recorders are perhaps the best tool we have to proactivly defend liberty in general (and not just "gun" rights). They're great on traffic stops too.

    IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE GET ONE TODAY AND USE IT (and know the laws of your state regarding audio recording in public)

    send this picture to the officer :

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    madrevar wrote:
    I decided to purchase one that evening.
    It usually takes an event to motivatesome of us tobuy one. Recorders are perhaps the best tool we have to proactivly defend liberty in general (and not just "gun" rights). There great on traffic stops too.

    IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE GET ONE TODAY AND USE IT (and know the laws of your state regarding audio recording in public)

    send this picture to the officer :
    Priceless would be carrying the way JMB designed 'em to be carried - condition 1!

    Good luck with that. :?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Since OC is legal in MN with a permit, according to the Map Page here on OCDO, it sounds to me like your 4th Amendment rights were abused.
    Minnesota's Department of Public Safety has a "frequently asked questions" page that says this:

    22. If I have a permit to carry a pistol do I have to conceal the pistol?
    No. Minnesota’s Personal Protection Act is a permit to carry law, not a conceal and carry law. The pistol does not need to be concealed, but can be concealed.

    This isn't coming from a pro-gun web site or some blog. This is coming directly from the states
    Department of Public Safety, for kripes sake! Find out who those cops are and email this link to them and their supervisors!


    http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/...rmit/FAQs.html








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    madrevar, many things here are out of line. The LEO pointing his weapon at you, unlawful detaintion, unlawful arrest (when he cuffed you an put you in his car you were legally arrested), etc...

    I would pursue legal options since your rights have been violated. The fact that he realized his error is good, however he went way too far and was one finger movement away from killing you for your OBEYING THE LAW.

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    At least you weren't in Golden Valley.

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    madrevar wrote:
    3-2-09

    12:30pm

    Coon Rapids (Riverdale Crossing)

    For reference, I begin this story carrying a CZ82 9x18mm in an all but unused Czech leather police holster, with thumb-break. I am wearing nothing but shorts/tshirt/sandals with only wallet/gun on me, with keys in left hand and beverage in right.

    My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle and were leaving to pay my phone bill at the adjacent TMobile. After leaving Tmobile, we proceeded across the lot to my truck. I got as far as the rearend of my truck, when a Coon Rapids Police Department marked car flew in and stopped a few parking spots to the left and opposite my side, approximately 15 yards away.

    The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me with his pistol drawn, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"

    After disarming me and handing my pistol to his partner to be secured, he immediately started cuffing me. I ask, "Officer, may I ask why we are cuffing?" To which he replies, "So I can frisk you and put you in the car." At this point I am not sure what is going to happen, but start thinking a "Disorderly Conduct/Distubing The Peace" chargeis in my future. After putting me in his squad, he and his partner and another officer deliberate on what to charge me with and if open carry is legal. After about ten minutes he comes back and starts asking me the rudimentary questions for his report, where I live, phone number, etc. After that he lets me out of the car, uncuffs me and gives me my keys and wallet back, but no gun yet.

    First he gives me the speil about how open carry is not the best idea, sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me.He also told me that when andifI havelaw enforcement respond again I should be fineif I do as I did that day.He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and professional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment. He had me and the girlfriend get in my truck, hands my pistol and mag back to me through my window. I notice my previously-chambered round is missing, so I asked him to get that for me. We shook hands andI asked for his card. Then he went on his way.

    No particular agenda on my part, just looking for comments and contructive criticisms from all. Thanks
    Follow up with as minimum, formal complaint - by formal, I just mean somthing written (even email or web form) , short, concise, to the chief or other official channels - follow up, make sure it won;t happen again.

  17. #17
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    And you think this was a good/professional encounter?

    It seems we have to re-educate even ourselves as to what the cop should have done... NOTHING! Or if he was in doubt about the legality of OC, he should keep an eye on you while calling it in to check. Or if he was really gung-ho, he should ask you to stay put (not cuff you, and not disarm you)... while he calls it in... your reaction would tell him a lot about you and the legality of what you're doing. All in all a rookie/overzealous, badge-heavy response.

    I'd file a complaint for harassment, unlawful arrest (cuffs=arrest), non-policy use of firearm, abuse of position, and waste of your time among others. No need to sue in this case, but I'd definitely file a complaint.

  18. #18
    Regular Member romma's Avatar
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    If the nice Mrpolice man seemed polite and professional, then he did a superb job at some serious back tracking and white washing his initial behavior in this encounter.

    Smart cop with some serious survival skills. I lovethe term a lot of them use: "Ignorance is noexcuse of the law". Except for them...

    Not to knock all cops as there are some good ones out there.

    Oh, "Porfessional"... That made my day worth it! I will never forget that word and will use it often as needed.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    romma wrote:
    snip....
    Oh, "Porfessional"... That made my day worth it! I will never forget that word and will use it often as needed.
    Difference between a professional and an amateur - the professional gets paid for his mistakes - it's true in all trades/professions.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Those LEO's are suppose to know the law, "ignorance is no excuse", show them no mercy, for if they had found one minor thing illegal in your conduct you WOULD have been charged, and we all know this!

    They violated your rights as an American citizen and as a citizen of your state, perhaps you don't have an agenda, and don't want to get rich, but you should look into some serious legal action, and if you get money and feel guilty about it, then donate it to a fellow OC'er that has been violated and needs funds for legal fees.

    Point is, these guys know the law, and make a living from YOUR taxes enforcing those laws, and will bust your balls every chance they get, and tell you "ignorance is no excuse" show the same respect that they show you.

    Glad you were notarrested ,but violated; you were.

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    I know I posted this in another thread, but again I believe this is what you are looking for.



    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42...3----000-.html


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=6603

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    I'd file a complaint for harassment, unlawful arrest (cuffs=arrest), ...
    I agree with your comments, but I do take exception to your comment that "Cuffs=arrest". Being placed in cuffs is simply a restraint method; at most, he was detained - not arrested.

    Otherwise yes, I agree - a complaint at the least is in order; the officer did do a nice job of realizing his mistake, but this is something that the department should at least be aware is a problem, if nothing else... the officers should be educated as to the proper method of dealing with someone OCing.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Legal explanations.com
    (v) Arrest is the action by which a person is stopped from his normal activities by virtue of a legal authority or sanction, either by detaining him or by stopping his external accesses. By an arrest, a person is deprived of his liberty. So the law contain many provisions like requirement of a warrant, adherence of Miranda rights, arraignment within the statutory limit etc.



    dictionary.reference.com
    verb (used with object) 1. to seize (a person) by legal authority or warrant; take into custody: The police arrested the burglar. noun 5. the taking of a person into legal custody, as by officers of the law. 6. any seizure or taking by force. 7. an act of stopping or the state of being stopped: the arrest of tooth decay.



    Perhaps the best, they go quite deeply into the matter.
    thefreedictionary.com
    A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty; the taking or keeping of a person in custody by legal authority, especially, in response to a criminal charge.
    ...
    An arrest may occur (1) by the touching or putting hands on the arrestee; (2) by any act that indicates an intention to take the arrestee into custody and that subjects the arrestee to the actual control and will of the person making the arrest; or (3) by the consent of the person to be arrested. There is no arrest where there is no restraint, and the restraint must be under real or pretended legal authority. However, the detention of a person need not be accompanied by formal words of arrest or a station house booking to constitute an arrest.



    BusinessDictionary.com
    To detain a person and keep him or her in custody by lawful authority. Arrest may be made with an arrest warrant or without one (called 'summary arrest') in case of an arrestable offense, or where it is authorized by a statute.



    YourDictionary.com
    transitive verb
    1. to stop or check the motion, course, or spread of
    2. to seize or take into custody by authority of the law
    3. to catch and keep (one's attention, sight, etc.)
    noun
    1. an arresting or being arrested; esp., a taking or being taken into custody by authority of the law
    2. a thing for checking motion


    LEOTraining.com
    [excerpted by me]
    Q -- Handcuffing People During Frisks An officer stops a vehicle with multiple occupants and develops reasonable suspicion to search for weapons (let’s assume he does have reasonable suspicion). Can an officer handcuff the occupants of a vehicle on reasonable suspicion alone only to search for weapons?

    I guess the case doesn't necessarily have to deal with passengers of automobiles. But if an officer fears someone is armed, can he/she handcuff the person to simply search for weapons or have the courts ruled that once a person is handcuffed they are in custody. I remember you lectured about this very topic but I don’t recall your opinion.

    Answer

    First off -- your safety is most important. If you feel that you must handcuff people present to go home at night, then do it.

    BUT -- you must remember that handcuffing looks like "custody" or "arrest" to a court / judge and that requires probable cause -- so let me give you some legal advice.

    1. Prior to handcuffing, tell the people they are not under arrest or in custody.

    2. As soon as you have frisked, unhandcuff the people, if possible.

    3. If you discover important evidence as a result of this procedure YOU must convince the court of the unusual circumstances that made it necessary to handcuff. This is not easy in lots of courts, so be prepared to tell the story to make the judge feel as if he / she were there.

    And be prepared to explain that whenever you have found it necessary to do this, you ALWAYS and immediately unhandcuff the people when you determine that nobody has a weapon that can hurt you.




    There are three levels (tiers) of interaction with the police as defined by the U.S. Supreme Court, we all know what they are.
    Tier 1 ... Voluntary Interaction
    Tier 2 ... Detention
    Tier 3 ... Arrest.

    Ask yourself what tier of interaction you are having when you are are involuntarily placed into restraints and your freedom to go about your normal activities is halted until such time as you are released.



  24. #24
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    It is clear that the officer made errors in his handling of OP. Using this case as an example, what would the damages be from a legal standpoint? And howwould the damages be quantified?

    Anyone know?

    I usually have this question whenever there is a post about being treated badly and unlawfully by cops is introduced here. When people suggest suing (e.g. Pagan), I suspect its suing for damages. But what are they, using this case as an example?

    I'm sure if the cop would have beat up or shot the OP, then the physical injuries and cost for treatmentof those would serve as the basis for damages.

    But is the false arrest (if it is an arrest) in this case worth, say, $200, if one were to spend $5000 to run it through the court system?

    Or, are thereno damages, since the LEO corrected his error in thinking that OP was violating the law?

  25. #25
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    I think it would be disproportionate and downright excessive to sue in this instance. Yes, he was detained. BUT, to be realistic, police officers cannot be expected to know every obscure statute in the state they work in.

    Yes, these laws may seem "common sense" to those of us on this forum, but keep in mind that this sort of situation is not one that an officer comes across often - indeed, I'd bet many officers never come across this even once throughout their career.

    Yes, I think he should file a complaint - that's more than reasonable. However, given that the officer released him immediately upon learning he was not in violation of the law should give the officer some credit.

    Also, keep in mind that while in the courtroom, the laws state "innocent until proven guilty", for a police officer in a potential confrontation with an unknown individual with a (presumably loaded) weapon, the best course of action would be to do exactly what this officer did.
    Remember: a police officer's number one concern is making sure he goes home at night. Everything else is secondary, as it should be when someone is risking their life potentially daily.

    This situation could be "what ifed" to death as far as "why didn't he ask if he had a permit or just stand there" but keep in mind, the officer sees a loaded gun, and his first instinct is to make sure that he isn't going to get shot, and the best way to do that is for him to take possession of it.

    Just try to remember that cops aren't "bad guys" - they're just trying to, like all of us, do a job and make a living. Just think about how you'd like it if somebody came to your desk and started telling you how to do a job you've done for x years... clearly a mistake was made here, but it was rectified as immediately as possible, and I think that deserves some credit.

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