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Thread: Wisconsin court decision upholding legality of open carry may help Illinois gain concealed carry

  1. #1
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    Hey Missouri experts - MO travel allows unlicensed concealed carry in vehicles at 18, yes? Cite handy??

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    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...1?OpenDocument

    Sheriffs give fresh ammo to the call for concealed carry






    ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

    03/05/2009


    The last time I wrote about guns, it brought a barrage (of words, not bullets) from an aggrieved fellow in Alabama who mellowed enough in subsequent e-mails to invite me to go shooting with him as something other than a target.

    I never made it down there, but I thought of him recently as the prospect of a concealed carry law for Illinois advanced a little.

    Concealed carry was the subject that raised his ire last time. He's a lawyer with a pistol on his hip and a strong argument for letting him leave it there. (He's also the kind of guy plugged in enough to know when an obscure Midwestern columnist like me writes on his pet topic. So, hello, again.)

    My trigger, excuse the word, for writing on it in 2003 was that Missouri was about to become the 45th state to let ordinary people, uh, pack heat as they say in the movies. Many of us in the Metro East took note because we work, shop and play in Missouri.










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    Well, Missouri went ahead with it and as far as I can tell not one of us from Illinois has been shot, justifiably or not, by one of those pistol-packers. Hardly any Missourians have been shot by them either, reconfirming the experience elsewhere that concealed carry seems to be neither a major solution for crime nor a big problem for the law-abiding.

    Whoa, you may say. What about all those things you wrote back in 2003? Well, they're still true:

    — By the time you realize that deadly force is appropriate, the bad guy very likely has an advantage over you. Remember that virtually every police officer slain on the job was armed and trained in self defense.

    — The more you handle your gun, the more likely a child will get hold of it.

    — Misuse of a gun, accidentally or deliberately, might cost you your liberty, your home and your bank account.

    — Carrying a gun may make you cocky enough to fight when you ought to run

    My point, then as now, is that carrying a gun should be an informed decision. I'm not saying that allowing people with permits to carry guns is necessarily bad.

    An indication of easing resistance for such legislation came recently from what sure seemed like an unlikely direction: the Illinois Sheriffs Association. But maybe it's not really so unlikely.

    As elected officials, sheriffs necessarily keep their fingers near the local pulse. Each of our 102 counties, regardless of size, has one sheriff. Illinois has a lot more rural counties than urban. Guns are widely seen as a means of recreation and protection in rural areas, if regarded as a scourge in the urban. Hence, it's logical to presume that a majority of sheriffs represent pro-gun counties.

    That said, two relatively urban sheriffs I know and respect — Mearl Justus in St. Clair County and Robert Hertz in Madison County — have gone along with the endorsement.

    Proponents will tell you that there are now only two states — Illinois and Wisconsin — that have no permits for concealed carry. That's true, if a little over-simplified.

    For instance, even Wisconsin appears to allow "open carry" of a firearm in plain view, based on the state's lack of a law against it and a court ruling in favor of the concept just last month.

    On the other hand, nine states that authorize concealed carry permits are on a "may issue" rather than "shall issue" basis. So in California or New York, for example, you have to make a case to authorities who can (and apparently often do) say no. In "shall issue" states such as Missouri, anyone who meets the listed qualifications is entitled.

    (In Missouri, in fact, the law is so open that pretty much any resident over 21 with a clean criminal record can legally carry a loaded gun concealed in a car, even without getting the permit.) [Actually, I think it's 18. Mike S.]

    In their present form, the slightly differing Illinois proposals for this legislative session (HB 245 and HB 462) would make us a "shall issue" state that recognizes other states' permit holders, too.

    Many concealed carry states honor permits of other states' residents. But it's still complicated. For example, Vermont has no restrictions on carrying firearms, which means no permit process. No permit means no reciprocity, so its residents cannot bring firearms even into concealed carry states. That is, unless they get non-resident permits from a state that issues those, such as Florida. Got that?

    The Illinois bills, as is customary, would limit permits to adults who get training and have clean criminal and mental health records.

    So does the weight of the sheriffs association tip the scales on the issue? Hardly. But it gives concealed carry proponents some (please excuse the expression) fresh ammunition.

    It's difficult to imagine that our lawmakers — still reeling from the Gov. Rod Blagojevich and Sen. Ronald Burris debacles, and desperately trying to plug a multibillion-dollar budget hole — have time for this in 2009. It's a very hot issue that's already waited around for decades.

    I guess you could say that adding a hefty tax on concealed carry could help the beleaguered budget. But you could just as easily argue that the nation's most tense economic crisis in modern memory is probably not a politically wise time to be putting more guns on the street.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    From the MOSHP carry pamphlet:
    In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry endorsement is required. Under the old law, the peaceable journey exception to the unlawful-use-of-a-weapon law permitted travelers on a continuous peaceable journey to carry a concealed weapon. The peaceable journey exception is still in the law, and may apply in circumstances where the new law does not (i.e. if the person is less than 21 years old). Also, any coroner, deputy coroner, medical examiner, or assistant medical examiner may carry a concealable firearm upon or about their person without an endorsement. Note: This law does not affect the law prohibiting possession of a concealable firearm by a dangerous felon. http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/P...ts/SHP-863.pdf
    As noted above, the peaceable journey exception still applies and in certain circumstances may allow someone 18-20 to legally carry in any manner in a vehicle. If not traveling in a manner that puts one under peaceable journey you must be 21. Also from the pamphlet:

    Q: How does the new law affect the old peaceable journey exception? A: It does not. You may still carry a concealed weapon on a continuous peaceable journey through the state. This includes Missourians whose trip begins and/or ends in Missouri.
    This comes from RsMO 571.030.3
    3. Subdivisions (1), (5), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section do not apply when the actor is transporting such weapons in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible or when such weapons are not readily accessible. Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state. Subdivision (10) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply if the firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed by a person while traversing school premises for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the purposes of facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm-related event.
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Pat Gauen wrote:
    — The more you handle your gun, the more likely a child will get hold of it.
    Uhhh, if an anti-gunner writes nonsense and Sarah Brady isn't there to tell him so, is he still wrong?

    A gedankenexperiment; I wear my sidearm as much as I can on an Island of 20 sq. miles with a current population of ~400 of whom 80 are children. Please describe the likelihood of a child get[ting] hold of it.

    I suggest that the more Pat Gauen handles his gun, the more likely a child will get hold of it. (Remembering, "This is my rifle, this is my gun. This one's for fighting and this one for fun.")



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    Pat Gauen wrote:
    — Misuse of a gun, accidentally or deliberately, might cost you your liberty, your home and your bank account.
    Misuse of a gun, including failure to use it, may cost you your life. Better to have it and not need it than not to have it a tall.

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    Pat Gauen wrote:
    Proponents will tell you that there are now only two states — Illinois and Wisconsin — that have no permits for concealed carry. That's true, if a little over-simplified.

    For instance, even Wisconsin appears to allow "open carry" of a firearm in plain view, based on the state's lack of a law against it and a court ruling in favor of the concept just last month.
    How does Wisconsin's open carry complicate its prohibition of concealed carry?

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    Pat Gauen wrote:
    It's difficult to imagine that our lawmakers — [ ... ] — have time for this in 2009. It's a very hot issue that's already waited around for decades.

    I guess you could say that adding a hefty tax on concealed carry could help the beleaguered budget. But you could just as easily argue that the nation's most tense economic crisis in modern memory is probably not a politically wise time to be putting more guns on the street.
    Freedom before budget before taxes except to pols desperate to be re-elected to sinecure.

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    Here's my response to Mr. Gauen, (I sent it to him via email just now).

    RE: article Sheriffs give fresh ammo to the call for concealed carry

    Mr. Gauen,

    I appreciate your honest look in your article today. I thought of a few things that you may want to check into regarding your points made in 2003 and currently.

    Your statement..."reconfirming the experience elsewhere that concealed carry seems to be neither a major solution for crime nor a big problem for the law-abiding." really is the catalyst to this email.

    Please check out the following:
    1) Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefe...g/blogger.html

    Until I started reading this blog, I had no idea just how many used a gun on a daily basis, (at home, at work, and otherwise) to defend themselves. Please take note that the left side contains archives.

    2) The article listed below is the one that made me realize that it was no one's responsibility but my own to defend myself and my family when and if the need should arise.
    The Constitutional Right and Social Obligation to Carry a Gun
    http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/83.cfm

    3) Each year a gun of some sort is used approx. 2.5 million times to defend a person or persons against an deadly attacker of some kind. The research is their for those who are open to consider non-biased research.

    4) Consider also the town that requires each homeowner to own a gun. I forget the name, but their crime rate dropped significantly and stayed down. Compare this to Washington D.C. and Chicago.

    I look forward to reading your response in your column at some point in the future after you have considered these things.

    A new concealed carry permit holder in NM, in a state that allows open carry.


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    jhow1nm2 wrote:
    4) Consider also the town that requires each homeowner to own a gun. I forget the name, but their crime rate dropped significantly and stayed down. Compare this to Washington D.C. and Chicago.
    Kennesaw, GA
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    I sometimes carry openly in my store, and so far I'm the only one on our corner that hasn't been hit yet. After I interrupted an armed robbery across the street a few years back, word got out on the street not to try it, but that has to wear off sometime, doesn't it?
    All I know is that people know I'm armed, and so far I've been safe, and I don't feel "tactically disadvantaged", if anything it gives any potential BG, pause for thought, on what might happen if....

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