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Thread: Anti Open Carry

  1. #1
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    I'm new here. I think open carry is the most basic of gun rights and I can only see it as senseless to give someone a right to keep a gun, but only locked up and hidden away.
    Keep and bear, to me, means a holster on your hip.
    I have today heard some ccw people say, yes, concealed, but not open. I just don't understand that.
    I am nearly legal retirement age, and have encountered many criminals, and believe that they are all the type to avoid someone openly carrying, NOT go and attack one person out of a group that was openly carrying. (Emphasis added, not meant to be shouting.)
    Secondly I heard the argument that if open carry is allowed (which it is, in some areas) then criminals will openly carry also.
    Again my experience has been that they are people who before and after and even sometimes during committing a crime HIDE - CONCEAL their weapon.
    Criminals are dumb, but I don't think they are that dumb, are they?
    On a number of occasions I have been approached by one or more characters who looked as though they intended some harm to me, and my response was to look VERY intently at them and reach to the small of my back and clip my hand onto my belt and hold it there.
    Every time I have then been given wide berth, suddenly they don't seem to want to be anywhere near me.
    Open carry is rude? Obnoxious? I don't even see that as close to making any sense whatsoever.
    Is there any real, or formidable to a sensible person reason against open carry?
    Do the anti's have any basis whatsoever?
    I have been around people with guns all my life and it never bothered me. So should the standard be the reasonable person, or the paranoiac?
    (Emphasis added, not shouting.)
    dc

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    I've CC for years and just reciently started to OC. Reason being, I'm tired of law abiding gunowners being looked upon as some sort of demon or second class citizen. I think we need to start "coming out" so to speak and being in the face of those want to take our rights away while being mindful of our actions and attitudes. We don't just need to be louder then the anti's we need to be better.

    My $.02, YMMV

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    I've been OC'ing for a couple of months now. I haven't had any problems from people

    at all. I just recently went to nashville and spent a few days there with the wife and

    went to our hotel, went to Opry Mills all while OC'ing and not a word, no people gett

    ing excited about me wearing in the open. (Of course, there are the double takes,

    and the suddenly wide open eyes. :what::celebrate.)

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    My .02 worth isthat 99% of sheeple dont ever notice the "evil black gun" in your hip holster :shock:

    Those that do may freak out, but they are few and far between (this reaction may vary if you live in the areas of D.C., New Jersey State, California, NYC - then expect your Civil Right(s) to be violated)...

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    The stern warnings against OC, that it would invariably cause a panic and disturb the peace.....in nearly a year I've yet to witness that once. Or anything closely resembling that. Another assumption, down the hatch.

    I've seen more people get positively excited when they see I'm carrying a firearm ('yes it's a real gun' should be printed on a tshirt) than anger or hysteria. What other assumptions are waiting to be dispelled?

    The taste of Freedom. Isn't it great?

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    I'm in Arizona, so I can choose to OC or CC and I don't give a rats behind what the next guy does.

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    GWbiker wrote:
    I'm in Arizona, so I can choose to OC or CC and I don't give a rats behind what the next guy does.
    ROFLMAO! Spoken like a true Arizonan!!

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    I have been CCing for a long time and would like to open carry but fear trouble from the law.I can't afford an attorney.

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    Ganghater wrote:
    I have been CCing for a long time and would like to open carry but fear trouble from the law.I can't afford an attorney.
    Why not start at one of the monthly lunches then? You will be around a bunch of other OCers, and not likely to be harassed at that point. Then you will probably be more comfortable with it. Oh, and welcome onto the forum.

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    Ganghater wrote:
    I have been CCing for a long time and would like to open carry but fear trouble from the law.I can't afford an attorney.
    Yeah, why not join us at the Oak Harbor meet this Sunday April 5th at 11AM? See the thread in the Washington forum.

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    I also have just started to OC and joined this forum as well. I have enjoyed reading as well as posting with great feed back in here and for that, I thank all of you.

    I have had a discussion with a co-worker who CCs all the time and he is against OC for a couple of reasons. First, for the simple fact that just in the extreme case of that one person who panics and call the police just because I happen to be somewhere minding my own business and he or she sees my pistol. In the one-in-a-million chance I get that one LEO(I mean no disrespect to any LEOs, but like with everyone else, there is always that one.)who really doesn't know the law and arrests me for whatever(just because he can) and I get processed. Even though I have done nothing wrong in the law"s eyes and it would be dropped. I got processed and finger-printed. I then can no longer be employed as I work as a pilot and could not pass a TSA no fly list. As stupid as it seems, it is plausible.

    Also, with all of the shootings that are going on lately, the way the public is so misinformed, he feels that an OC would draw attention to gun-carriers and it would be the wrong kind of attention and actually hurt the cause at this time. We live in NC and as far as we can tell, there is no SPECIFIC law stating it is legal to open carry, just an absence of one stating not to open carry, so it can be open to interpretation.

    I do not agree with him even though he is a good friend, but I also do not disagree as he seems to have a valid point, even though its an extreme case situation.

    Any feed back on this subject?

    Once again, thanks everyone for your time and feed-back!

    Semper Fi!

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    All valid points. I only CC. Have not oc'd yet, but will when good weather comes. The main reason I mostly CC is for the element of surprise.

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    I started to OC when we moved to Arizona. (We just moved back to Virginia) So I have been OCing for about 3-4 years now. I like to OC over CC. Please read the following I think it says it all. I think we should teach the Sheeple instead of catering to their fears.

    Tubby45 from DefensiveCarry.com Wrote this I think it hits the nail right on the head for OC.

    My primary goal when I’m out and about (besides whatever I went out and about to do) is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

    Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the potential pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause, and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

    Deterrent Value:
    When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teaming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

    Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

    First One To Be Shot:
    There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry. Back in the 7-11, if he sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed behind him in the parking lot, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make any sense that they would be.

    Surprise:
    Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while like in some Charles Bronson movie is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you may forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

    It Will Get Stolen:
    Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting as criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. There are no Robins in the hood trying to help the poor by stealing from the rich. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to your self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing.

    It Scares People:
    One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. We give much more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

    I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
    This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry. The combination of the two makes the criminal’s job that much more risky, that much more dangerous, and that much more uncertain.



  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Excellent writeup!!


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    That's prob'ly the best detailed explaination for OC I've read yet. All this 'tactical advantage' stuff about CC is la-la-land covert fantasy BS. OC is an obvious deterrent.

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    Colt Mark IV wrote:
    All valid points. I only CC. Have not oc'd yet, but will when good weather comes. The main reason I mostly CC is for the element of surprise.
    The 'element of surprise' is an offensive tactic, not defensive. Lawfully carried firearms are for defensive purposes.

    Exactly how do you plan on surprising the bad guy when he has a gun stuck in your face and his finger on the trigger?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    A tactical vest makes open carry safer than concealed, too.

  18. #18
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    I mostly CC is for the element of surprise.
    I OC for the element of surprise. The surprise a bad guy gets when he sees the holstered sidearm causing him to turn around and leave without an incident ever taking place.



  19. #19
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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Colt Mark IV wrote:
    All valid points. I only CC. Have not oc'd yet, but will when good weather comes. The main reason I mostly CC is for the element of surprise.
    The 'element of surprise' is an offensive tactic, not defensive. Lawfully carried firearms are for defensive purposes.

    Exactly how do you plan on surprising the bad guy when he has a gun stuck in your face and his finger on the trigger?
    You nailed it! :celebrate

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Colt Mark IV wrote:
    All valid points. I only CC. Have not oc'd yet, but will when good weather comes. The main reason I mostly CC is for the element of surprise.
    The 'element of surprise' is an offensive tactic, not defensive. Lawfully carried firearms are for defensive purposes.

    Exactly how do you plan on surprising the bad guy when he has a gun stuck in your face and his finger on the trigger?
    Here is how you get surprise when CC'ing...

    OC a pair of really big guns, a couple DE's if you can get them, on your hips with no retention method at all, and make sure they are practically falling out of the holsters.

    Then, when a BG sneaks up behind you and steals your guns, as we all know happens ALL THE TIME to OC'ers , turn around and pull out your CCW. Then laugh as the BG gets a confused look on his face when he pulls the triggers on your DE's only to find out that they don't fire because they are loaded with snap caps. Then shoot the fark out of the loser using your awesome CC element of surprise.


    The only other way to get surprise when CC'ing is to not be the primary target of the assault. Guy robbing a store you are in? You should be able to get surprise. Guy trying to mug you? You are farked.
    OC'ing is what makes sure that nobody tries to mug you. As for the store robber if he cases the place before he robs it he will just leave after seeing you, if he comes running in with his mask on and gun out, fully committed, you are not the primary target so you will still manage to get the element of surprise just as if you were CC'ing.

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    Or giving him his first target, pro's and con's for each.

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    I'll add my two farthings to the pot and say that Snake Eater's post on April 8th is the best presentation I've seen for OC anywhere. Good job well done.

    I live in rural southwestern New Mexico, with 35 miles of empty desert before you get to 'town', which has a population of about 12,000. Out here in the real world, you can call 911 (if the phone is working that day) but you're going to have to wait 40 minutes to an hour for a response. You've got to be able to protect yourself from thebanditos. And really, what's so bad about that?

    Thank God for the 2nd Amendment.

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    Geronimo44 wrote:
    Or giving him his first target, pro's and con's for each.
    You don't read well do you? but I can see that you watch lot's of movies and are a member of the NRA !

    Sorry, couldn't help myself

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    Ratt402 wrote:
    We live in NC and as far as we can tell, there is no SPECIFIC law stating it is legal to open carry, just an absence of one stating not to open carry, so it can be open to interpretation.


    According to the '71 verison of the NC Constitution u do hav the 'Right' to 'bear arms' but do not hav the Right to conceal carry.

    Sec. 3. Internal government of the State.

    The people of this State have the inherent, sole, and exclusive right of regulating the internal government and police thereof, and of altering or abolishing their Constitution and form of government whenever it may be necessary to their safety and happiness; but every such right shall be exercised in pursuance of law and consistently with the Constitution of the United States. [emphasis added]

    The justicesclaimed in Heller 'the individual' had the Right to bear arms long before the U.S. Const was written, and 'the individual' has the Right to bear arms 'now'. The justices further clamied in 'Miranda', 'no rule, code, or legislation' can interfer w/ urfundamental Rights.

    ____________________

    Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms. ('71 version of the NC const).


    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice. [emphasis added]

    According to the NC Const. (which supercedes any 'state statutes')thestate Citizens hav the fundamental Right to OC but do not hav the fundamental Right toCC. The later, the state Citizen has to begtheirstate guvt for permission. Which co-insides w/ Sec 3 of the NC const which recognizes the state laws must be inline w/ the US const.



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    Thanks for the info Rayce Brannon as you are totally correct. I guess I used the wrong choice of words on what I was trying to get at. I am fairly new to OC and this forum, hence why I like it so much, everyone is helpful in here. Anyways, I guess what I was getting at, it would be alot more of a comfort if NC was more specific as is VA from what I can read and them being a "Gold Star Open Carry State" according to the Maps on the home page here.

    Might say I expect to run across that one percent with the luck I have!

    Thanks again!



    Semper Fi !

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