First OC in town anti-climatic

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Doublewide, which gun store was that? I know of only one here in Windsor and that is a small place in a shopping center on the west side of town. I prefere the Sportsmans Ware House. Good leather selections there.



Coorado Slick

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Slick,

Interesting. I just had a nice chat this afternoon with a sergeant down at the police post and I specifically asked him about a) any ordinances against open carry (there are none in Windsor) and b) the department's philosophy or feelings about it. The LEO indicated that the police department doesn't really have a problem with open carry but the problem is the general public may wig out and the police and up showing up to sort out what's going on. He seemed pretty non-chalant about it. If you have specific cases otherwise, do tell. I don't see how they could make a disorderly conduct charge stick when open carry in the city of Windsor is perfectly legal.

I also had an interesting discussion today with a FORMER LEO who basically said I was a fool looking for trouble if I open carry. His take was that if I open carry eventually I WILL have officers with weapons pointed at me. I realize that they don't know what I might be doing but I don't see how they can just draw down on me, assuming I'm complying with their requests and there hasn't been a crime committed, I am not in the process of committing a crime and there is no indication that I am about to commit a crime. I guess they can pretty much do anything to protect themselves but I'd be really pi$$ed.

Anyway, and this isa question I still have, this progressed into a discussion about where you can and cannot open carry. He claims a municipality can enact an ordinance prohibiting open carry and that municipality does NOT have to post signs indicating such ordinance, not for a particular area or building but for the whole jurisdiction. (IE: he claims local laws can always beMORE restrictive than state laws)My understanding up to nowis that signs must be posted in areas where firearms are prohibited but what about a whole jurisdiction (eg: anywhere within city limits). I cannot find anything in the state statutes clarifying this (other than in a vehicle, schools, offices of the general assembly, etc.) so is it true or not? Sure, a city ordinance may SAY it is illegal to carry anywhere within city limits but can a city legally do this?

The gun shop I was referring to was Jensen Arms in Loveland. I guess I was taking some liberty with the term "local"

What say we meet for coffee sometime? I'd like to hear more of your insight and experience with OC. I will be getting my CCW this spring.

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doublewide wrote:

Anyway, and this isa question I still have, this progressed into a discussion about where you can and cannot open carry. He claims a municipality can enact an ordinance prohibiting open carry and that municipality does NOT have to post signs indicating such ordinance, not for a particular area or building but for the whole jurisdiction. (IE: he claims local laws can always beMORE restrictive than state laws)My understanding up to nowis that signs must be posted in areas where firearms are prohibited but what about a whole jurisdiction (eg: anywhere within city limits). I cannot find anything in the state statutes clarifying this (other than in a vehicle, schools, offices of the general assembly, etc.) so is it true or not? Sure, a city ordinance may SAY it is illegal to carry anywhere within city limits but can a city legally do this?

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29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.

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doublewide wrote:

He claims a municipality can enact an ordinance prohibiting open carry and that municipality does NOT have to post signs indicating such ordinance, not for a particular area or building but for the whole jurisdiction. (IE: he claims local laws can always beMORE restrictive than state laws)My understanding up to nowis that signs must be posted in areas where firearms are prohibited but what about a whole jurisdiction (eg: anywhere within city limits). I cannot find anything in the state statutes clarifying this (other than in a vehicle, schools, offices of the general assembly, etc.) so is it true or not? Sure, a city ordinance may SAY it is illegal to carry anywhere within city limits but can a city legally do this?

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I'll take Tony Fabian's view on this over some "former LEO".... cops often don't know the law as much as they claim/should.

from CSSA.org, specifically a legal Q&A w/ Tony Fabian:

There is no legal definition of open carry in Colorado. State law does not specifically address the open carry of firearms; therefore, it does not prohibit the practice. However, several municipalities have banned open carry in some form or other--either citywide or in specific designated areas. This practice was upheld by the Colorado Court of Appeals in 2002 in the case of Trinen v. Denver, and the State Supreme Court refused to review the COA's ruling. SB25, which went into effect nearly a year ago, requires that cities post any place where open carry of firearms is prohibited. Cities with limited (bans confined to limited areas such as specific buildings or areas) bans appear to be in compliance with the law; cities with unlimited (city-wide) bans have not posted to the satisfaction of the state statute. As such, it is the position of CSSA that such unlimited bans, unless posted at all entry ways to the city, are unenforceable. If you want to know the law for your city, or a city you are visiting, go to the city's website and look up the city's laws on the subject in the municipal code. Hope this answers your question.

Tony Fabian
President, CSSA

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entartet17,

Thank you for posting 29-11.7-104 - I am aware of this part of the statutes but my question still stands - can a municipality invoke an ordinance that says open carry is not permittedANYWHERE in the municipality and NOT have to post signs? The verbiage in 29-11.7-104 does not seem clear to me on this subtlety because it addresses SPECIFICareas or buildings.

Am I reading meaning into what the statute does NOT say? In other words, because 29-11.7-104does NOT say a municipality may restrict firearms in ALL areas of the municipalities, it cannot?

Scary, I'm starting to think like a lawyer.....

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Thanks, Scotsman, you got right to what I am questioning. I told this guy that cops often don't know the laws thoroughly, he just rolled his eyes. BTW, he is an NRA-certified CCW instructor so there's no arguing with him. :banghead: I plan to show him 29-11.7-104 and see how he responds. I tried to tell him this but he just told me I was wrong.

EDIT: I've been perusing various municipal codes since Scotsman posted and it appears that municipal codes are consistent with CSSA/Fabian. Some of these ordinances indicate some pretty general definitions for where firearms are prohibited but they all seem to specifically state that these areas must have signs posted as described in 29-11.7-104. Seems pretty clear to me now and I will be visiting my former LEO friend to educate him. I will also be carrying a copy of 29-11.7-104 whenever I OC.

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Doublewide, I may be wrong on this but I seem to recall reading that state law prohibits atown or city from banning carrying a firearm. I believe I know the sgt. you were talking to. He has given me the same song and dance. As for the former LEO: That is the Windsor cop shop. They haven't got a clue.

Sure, I'd like to meet up for coffee. Say where and when.

Colorado slick

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Slick,

Alba's coffe shop (formerly Saxby's), maybe Friday morning?

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OK! What time? Maybe say, 9:30. Look for a big black hat.

Colorado

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OK, we'll SHOOT lolfor 9:30. Look for a .45 on the right side :celebrate

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OK! Me too.

(Russ) Colorado

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Hey Russ - if you are watching this now (Thursday morning) and can break away let me know. My schedule opened up this morning and his filling up tomorrow

Let's take this off thethread - PM sent.

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doublewide wrote:

I also had an interesting discussion today with a FORMER LEO who basically said I was a fool looking for trouble if I open carry. His take was that if I open carry eventually I WILL have officers with weapons pointed at me. I realize that they don't know what I might be doing but I don't see how they can just draw down on me, assuming I'm complying with their requests and there hasn't been a crime committed, I am not in the process of committing a crime and there is no indication that I am about to commit a crime. I guess they can pretty much do anything to protect themselves but I'd be really pi$$ed.

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First off, this post is not meant to shed a bad light on LEO or discourage OC. I'm simply stating some of the experience I've come across:

The sad reality of OC and LEO is that often an officer is responding to a 'Man With A Gun' call and does not know the details until he or she arrives on the scene, at which point, upon arrival, you are viewed as an immediate threat to LEO and anyone else in the surrounding area.

Often times, as with the majority of LEO who have been on the job for a while, LEO will develop a "jaded" perception of society. It's sad that since they have to deal with "perps, drug dealers, gang members," etc, on such frequency that it gives the rest of us folks a disadvantage. Whether you want to realize it or not, the second LEO spots you, you've already been profiled against all the other encounters that particular officer has had with persons with a gun. Most of the time it is not a friendly or positive image that comes to their mind.

So, although you may have a constitutional right to open carry and be within every legal boundary to do so in your location, any encounter with LEO has the potential to turn "ugly." Unfortunately, we are guilty until proven innocent (another way to look at it is that you are a threat until proven otherwise). Always be courteous, respectful, and cooperative in any encounter.

I urge all fellow OCers to OC with extreme caution, know the law well, and always carry some kind of recording device. Happy OCing!

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Equinox,

Good post. I don't deny the realities, just venting I guess - it shouldn't be that way. However, if we don't exercise our rights we're going to lose them so I'm willing to take the chance of a LEO encounter that may get "ugly". I'm NOT advocating OC'ing in a wreckless or stupid way or with an "attitude." We need to be smart about it and I think your post is good advice, thanks for the contribution!

BTW - In the interest of education, I plan to visit this former LEO I had a discussion with the other day with a copy of SB 03-025 in hand with 29-11.07-104 highlighted as well as some examples of city ordinances that have been adopted in a few cities that specifically state that signs must be posted where firearms are prohibited. (He indicated that a municipality can simply pass and ordinance, no signage required.) I see this as an opportunity to educate, not be adversarial. He can continue to state otherwise but I want to show him the statutes and I'll leave it at that. Plus he is a firearms instructor so I want to be sure he has the facts straight for his students!

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Equinox wrote:

SNIP:

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Often times, as with the majority of LEO who have been on the job for a while, LEO will develop a "jaded" perception of society. It's sad that since they have to deal with "perps, drug dealers, gang members," etc, on such frequency that it gives the rest of us folks a disadvantage. Whether you want to realize it or not, the second LEO spots you, you've already been profiled against all the other encounters that particular officer has had with persons with a gun. Most of the time it is not a friendly or positive image that comes to their mind.

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Unfortunately true. My brother's a cop out in Cali, and from his point of view everyone he contacts is a 'scumbag'. He was a very cynical child, and my mom didn't want him to join Law Enforcement, and now he's the world's biggest pessimist.

Thankfully my father, who was LEO for nearly 40 years, and was a homicide detective, has a rather positive outlook on humanity. He knows there's scumbags and assholes but realizes that a great majority of people out there are inherently good.

If I ever am able to join the family profession, I hope I'll maintain the outlook of my father, and not my cynic brother.

It's an unfortunate reality for LEO, and sometimes their outlook on the world can greatly hurt their family lives, and I feel very sorry for those that do.

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doublewide wrote:

entartet17,

Thank you for posting 29-11.7-104 - I am aware of this part of the statutes but my question still stands - can a municipality invoke an ordinance that says open carry is not permittedANYWHERE in the municipality and NOT have to post signs? The verbiage in 29-11.7-104 does not seem clear to me on this subtlety because it addresses SPECIFICareas or buildings.

Am I reading meaning into what the statute does NOT say? In other words, because 29-11.7-104does NOT say a municipality may restrict firearms in ALL areas of the municipalities, it cannot?

Scary, I'm starting to think like a lawyer.....

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No. "Specific area" otherwise state preemption applies. And signs must be clearly posted. The only broad prohibition is where metal detectors are in use at municipal buildings.

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Gunslinger,

Yes, thanks to the help of others here, that is the conclusion I've come to and, as I stated above, seems to be the interpretation of municipalities that do have some sort of gun ordinance. I still don't see how Denver gets away with theirgun bans and restrictionsas the law seems very clear.

Gary

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Double--it was grandfathered in and the SC of CO voted 3-3 with a former AG recusing herself because she was involved in the state preemption law. It is, however, the only county that can ban OC because of the grandfathered ordinance. If challenged again, she would recuse herself again and another 3-3 vote--tie goes to the runner in action to overturn, would probably result. We need to get rid of one liberal and then take up the cause.