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Thread: Serial Numbers

  1. #1
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    Would putting black tape over the serial number violate this section?


    750.230 Firearms; altering, removing, or obliterating marks of identity; presumption.
    Sec. 230. A person who shall wilfully alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the maker, model, manufacturer’s number, or
    other mark of identity of a pistol or other firearm, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2
    years or fine of not more than $1,000.00. Possession of a firearm upon which the number shall have been altered, removed, or
    obliterated, other than an antique firearm as defined by section 231a(2)(a) or (b), shall be presumptive evidence that the pos-
    sessor has altered, removed, or obliterated the same.
    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931;—CL 1948, 750.230;—Am. 1976, Act 32, Imd. Eff. Mar. 5, 1976.
    Constitutionality: The statutory presumption contained in this section is unconstitutional. People v. Moore, 402 Mich. 538, 266 N.W.2d 145 (1978).
    Former law: See section 11 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16760.

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    SmallWhiteBox wrote:
    Would putting black tape over the serial number violate this section?


    750.230 Firearms; altering, removing, or obliterating marks of identity; presumption.
    Sec. 230. A person who shall wilfully alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the maker, model, manufacturer’s number, or
    other mark of identity of a pistol or other firearm, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2
    years or fine of not more than $1,000.00. Possession of a firearm upon which the number shall have been altered, removed, or
    obliterated, other than an antique firearm as defined by section 231a(2)(a) or (b), shall be presumptive evidence that the pos-
    sessor has altered, removed, or obliterated the same.
    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931;—CL 1948, 750.230;—Am. 1976, Act 32, Imd. Eff. Mar. 5, 1976.
    Constitutionality: The statutory presumption contained in this section is unconstitutional. People v. Moore, 402 Mich. 538, 266 N.W.2d 145 (1978).
    Former law: See section 11 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16760.
    I'd err on the side of caution and not cover it up if your carrying openly, reason being in my opinion that from a distance or casual glance it could appear as if altered.

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    if you look at : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/alter?qsrc=2888for the definition of "alter" it does not state altering as being "cover up"

    when you place a pistol in a holster normally you end up "covering up" this information.

    My OPINION is that it would be ok, since what you are not doing is not permanent. But remember, thats just from dictionary.com -- there "could" be a definition out there saying alter = cover up.....

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    Hmm forgot that when holstered that it covers up the serial.

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    Maybe this is a dumb question, but why do you want to put tape on the serial number?

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    custom.45acp wrote:
    Maybe this is a dumb question, but why do you want to put tape on the serial number?
    ya know. i meant to ask the same thing. because if you are 1ft away, on MOST pistols you couldn't even make out the SN...

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    custom.45acp wrote:
    Maybe this is a dumb question, but why do you want to put tape on the serial number?
    To circumvent an officer attempting to run your pistol through the database by claiming it is in plain sight. If they are forced to remove the tape then they are effectively searching you and your property.

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    It seems to me though that by covering it to hide the serial number you would therefore create possible RS due to the suspicous nature of your actions by covering parts of your gun with tape.

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    suspicious gives them a reason to look further

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    Agreed, IMO why would you want to create extra hassle if you don't want to granted some may find it odd that people open carry its completely legal and if you didn't obtain the gun illegally or have felonies that would prohibit you from owning it then why would you worry about someone running the numbers unless you have something to hide.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    UnSeen UnKnown wrote:
    Agreed, IMO why would you want to create extra hassle if you don't want to granted some may find it odd that people open carry its completely legal and if you didn't obtain the gun illegally or have felonies that would prohibit you from owning it then why would you worry about someone running the numbers unless you have something to hide.
    Once your pistol is run, even if it's just "routine", and you have done nothing wrong, it is put into a database that the anti's use and twist to lend credibility to outrageous claims. They automatically assume a pistol is run because the owner/user commited a crime. It's invasion of your privacy, besides. 4th amendment.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    If an LEO has no RS that you have committed a crime, simply decline their request for your firearm. Without RS, they have no right to seize your property. If they already have it, they have already searched and seized, and I don't think a piece of tape is going to stop them.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  13. #13
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    Agreed

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    Well Dang!
    I suppose that means that I'd be a felon for doing a grip chop on my XD... (it would remove the "SA-XD" on the grip). I wonder if sending it off to be done by a shop makes it ok?
    I tell you what, I'm about done with these ridiculous rules...
    We know they aren't there to make us safer...

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    If an LEO has no RS that you have committed a crime, simply decline their request for your firearm. Without RS, they have no right to seize your property. If they already have it, they have already searched and seized, and I don't think a piece of tape is going to stop them.
    I am not a lawyer.

    After a lot of thought, I have concluded that it will be almost impossible to know with sufficient certainty whether the LEO has genuine RAS. All it takes is a 911 call where the caller exaggerated or lied. Or the dispatcher altered the report when passing it on to the LEO.

    I am firmly in the camp that automatically refuses consent--verbally only--to any search or seizure, requested or not. This also assumes I have the time for a prolonged detention for standing on my rights, what some police call being uncooperative. For example, if it would make me late to a business appointment, I might be a little more "cooperative."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
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    While this is a bit off topic, it does deal with LEOs running a serial number. This is in California, where you have to OC without a loaded handgun and the cops have the right by law to stop you to check your handgun to determine if it's loaded. The discussion on this tread is are they allowed to run your numbers. There have been some SCOTUS decisions regarding in plain view. And some argue that if the number is in plain view they can run it.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/22819.html

    This covering the numbers has been discussed on the national forum and on
    MGO. Many felt that covering the number fell under the term altering. But then some guns have camo tape over them, is that altering? Or how about a protective covering?


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    If this is just to prevent someone (LEO) from seeing the serial numbers, then there's another issue. What is he/she doing that close to your (let's say) holstered gun?

    Custom.45acp

  18. #18
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    custom.45acp wrote:
    If this is just to prevent someone (LEO) from seeing the serial numbers, then there's another issue. What is he/she doing that close to your (let's say) holstered gun?

    Custom.45acp
    In some encounters with LEO in regard to OC the officer does take the gun from the person, sometimes they run the numbers andsometimes not. Remember some LEO's hate OC and will look for ANY thing to bust you, or to at least make the stop as uncomfortable as they can. All to dissuade you from doing it again.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
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    In an effort to clarify my previous post on why I would want to put black tape over the serial number, I will explain exactly what my reasoning is.

    The three levels of a police encounter are:

    1. Consensual - It's a free country, anyone can talk to anyone and leave at any time. No frisks, searches, arrests, etc. occur during this level

    2. Detain - If an officer has 'reasonable articulable suspicion' that a crime has been or will be committed, they can force you to remain in their presence for the time being. During this level, they can perform a pat-down to remove any weapons they may find on you to ensure their safety. They CANNOT search you or your belongings during this level.

    This is where the tape comes into play. If you are being detained and the officer decided to pat you down for weapons, they will remove said firearm and hold it until the encounter is over. During this time, the serial number is in plain sight and they can legally run it through any databases they may have. However, if you put tape over the number, it removes the number from plain sight and forces the officer to search your property in order to find the number.

    3. Arrest - This is where they have gathered enough evidence that they are charging you with a crime. They CAN search you at this point and the tape is moot.

    Hopefully this clarifies my reasoning. And yes, I do own all my firearms and they are properly registered in the unconstitutional database that Michigan keeps.

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    SmallWhiteBox,

    Do you open or conceal carry?

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    custom.45acp wrote:
    SmallWhiteBox,

    Do you open or conceal carry?
    Both

  22. #22
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    I know that it's customary to check plates on the car when you're being pulled over (the usual stuff -CPL, stolen car, any warrant), right?







    I'm not LEO, but why wouldn't they do the same if their checking your gun? If they've stopped you to talk to you, why would that be part of their SOP?



    Just asking!


    Custom.45acp

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    The issue of covering the serial numbers is more of an issue in California (see the OC California section for reasons why)

    In MI, the PD has to have a "reasonable and articulable" suspicion to stop an OCer (and an automobile driver). OCers in CA, though, can be stopped just for OCing... see the CA section of OpenCarry.org for a detailed explanation.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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